Question about original Healey paint quality

[nevets]

Looking at the cover of the latest issue of Healey Marque, the one with the way cool picture of Clint Eastwood and his Austin Healey, I was struck by the rather poor paint quality of the Healey. Not just Clint’s car, I’ve noticed this in many period photos of Austin Healeys. Recognizing that there have been tremendous improvements in paint technology in the decades since Healeys were in production, as evidenced by the nearly flawless paint work we see on some spectacular Austin Healey restorations, my question is this: Other than accuracy of color, is paint the one part of an Austin Healey that is exempt from originality when seeking concours certification? Surely, it must be possible for a restorer to replicate the paint quality of an original Austin Healey? Just wondering…

 

[vette]

Hi Nevets, You might find interesting a book titled, "The Stewardship of Historically Significant Automobiles, by Dr. Fred Simeone. Also he is a major principle at the Simeone Museum in Philidelphia.
He has great reads on the differences on automotive finishes and their affects in concours judging. One point he makes is that an unforturnate result of the concurs judging invironment of automobiles is that everyone seems to desire the most beautiful, shiniest, sparkling representation of whatever piece is being presented. Even in many judging circles, the judges are making decisions while also being affected by these same attributes. Simeone portends that judging should be based on originality and not star appeal. He and his followers are in the minority at this point. One statement he makes that has stuck with me is that in the current judging world, paint technology does not effect the outcome of the judging results other than the fact that new paint technology usually results in a shiner more durable finish and sadly the shiner and more sparkling the finish the better the chances for a higher points score. Dave.

 

[stuntflyr]

My father used to campaign an original SIII E-Type in JCNA and I helped him during that period on a regular basis. He was able to sway the judging pool in Los Angeles through the provenance of his car as to what constituted originality and that included paint color, and gloss. Many tried and failed to beat him but the car was really Signal Red and lacquer painted from the factory and he was a master at putting a shine on that lacquer. It shows very well today, it was just at Custom European Imports getting maintenance and Brad and Steve are still impressed.
Many colors aren't really the hue or true color that the original color was even though the formula that is labeled as such is used. Many pick a color and say it is that color even though it is not, like my MGB. It is a color very close by eye to what my father thought the original color was and he mixed it to that color. I found it much greyer than the splash panels when I completed the car's restoration but it was never corrected and maintains that color today.
So the real original cars still have a chance, but I haven't done concours activity in 20 years so maybe the tide has turned. More restorations than originals could make this swing, but then again a whole new wave can be started by a real original car with provenance.
Chris...

 

[RAC68]

Originally, the paint on the Healey was reasonably shiny enamel color for the period but after a year’s exposure to the sun, the red started turning orange, the black and green became shallow, the yellow turned greenish, and the metallic blue started to loose the blue and became silvery and blotchy. Although I did prefer the Healey blue or red at the time, I chose the Old English White because it was the only color that resisted change most and, when it did start to change, it only became more of an older English white.

I realize I must sound really negative but I always get a kick when I hear someone at a gathering state that the beautifully deep and shiny color on their Healey is the original color. Don’t misunderstand, the paints used on the Healey were no worse then the paint found on most British cars of the day but was far below the quality of paints used on cars manufactured in the US.

For the most part, Donald and Geoff could only dream of the colors, fit, and finishes found on their cars today.

Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[stuntflyr]

Interesting that they were enamel. It makes me wonder if all of the paint used on the MGB and E-Types were enamel as well. They faded so badly, as you point out Ray, that I always thought they were lacquer.
Chris...

 

[drambuie]

I still have the original BRG paint and top on my 67 BJ8, it shows it's age but is still presentable. Many people tell me to leave it as is and not to repaint it because it shows the pantia and original true form of the car. In fact, most people told me they would pay me more for my Healey because of it. As far as judging at british car shows, I don't bother! I know for a fact the judges are much like the general public, they go for the candy drops as I call them! Chrome wheels and Clear coat paint. They could care less about a untouched factory original as I have with 39,000 original miles. Come to think of it...I NEVER seen a "restored"Austin Healey "correct" as far as painting and priming as the factory did it....there are areas of a factory built Austin Healey that was left in Red or black primer and never painted. However, even the high end restorers paint these areas with color. Not Concours in my mind....nice, but not true to the factory built Austin Healeys. So...are they truly Concours? In my mind....NO. And if your wondering, Yes...there are ways for a judge to see these hidden areas and factory chalk marks. Come to think of it! I never seen a good Concours judge as well.

 

[stuntflyr]

I still have the original BRG paint and top on my 67 BJ8, it shows it's age but is still presentable. Many people tell me to leave it as is and not to repaint it because it shows the pantia and original true form of the car. In fact, most people told me they would pay me more for my Healey because of it. As far as judging at british car shows, I don't bother! I know for a fact the judges are much like the general public, they go for the candy drops as I call them! Chrome wheels and Clear coat paint. They could care less about a untouched factory original as I have with 39,000 original miles. Come to think of it...I NEVER seen a "restored"Austin Healey "correct" as far as painting and priming as the factory did it....there are areas of a factory built Austin Healey that was left in Red or black primer and never painted. However, even the high end restorers paint these areas with color. Not Concourse in my mind....nice, but not true to the factory built Austin Healeys. So...are they truly Concourse? In my mind....NO. And if your wondering, Yes...there are ways for a judge to see these hidden areas and factory chalk marks. Come to think of it! I never seen a good Concourse judge as well.

LOL! Thanks for the comment.
Chris...

 

[mikephillips]

While not Healy, our group of british car guys got away from concours type judging and went strictly to a popular vote, precisely because of the issues and arguments over what constituted originality.

 

[drambuie]

While not Healy, our group of british car guys got away from concours type judging and went strictly to a popular vote, precisely because of the issues and arguments over what constituted originality.

With all due respect....you just made my whole point! So called concours judges are nothing but volunteers for the most part, there opinions very like the the wind. Most long time owners in this forum can be a so called concours judge.

As for me, it's very easy to determine what a true "First place" concours car is. it's a car that is a factory built never restored original, in better condition then all the rest never restored factory original built cars in the show, Period!!!!!! The rest can be judged in a different category as "restored" as close to factory built originals. BUT... The best original factory built non restored car in the best condition entered in the show takes the top concours trophy. So...there needs to be two categories, Top factory built original concours, and Top restored concours.

After all, the never restored factory built cars have the, original factory's, original tooling, original parts, markings and original workers who built them in the first place standing behind them! Can't get more concours then that! See....wasn't that easy?

 

[Keoke]

So called concours judges are nothing but volunteers for the most part.

YEP !,They are in training, but by the time they graduate to the level of the international shows generally they know right from wrong.---Keoke

 

[HealeyRick]

I'm not going to argue that an original really low mileage car should be a concours winner. Maybe those cars could be judged as "survivor" cars. But there's not too many of those left anymore. Meanwhile, lots of folks try to keep their car as original and some take the time and dedication to turn out a car as close as possible to when it left the factory. The Austin-Healey Concours Committee has done an admirable job of coming up with standards of what "original" was. I have no doubt that those standards have raised the quality of restored cars and directly led to the rise in value of the marque. And while the judge are volunteers, the ones I have met take the job seriously. Sure, there can be disagreements about judging, but you can be sure a car that obtains a gold level certificate is well done. Some leeway in paint finish has been given due to lack of availability of the old materials, particularly in metalflake where today's flake is larger than used originally. Full disclosure - I concours judged Sprites at one Conclave at a time when few of us were doing that kind of thing with Sprites. It was a tough but rewarding experience.

 

[CLEAH]

While not Healy, our group of british car guys got away from concours type judging and went strictly to a popular vote, precisely because of the issues and arguments over what constituted originality.

Which is essentially what the Concouse d'Elegance originally was--a competition of who had the prettiest car, and back then, old cars (restored or not) need not apply. It was for new, typically coach built cars. Later, it became about perfection of condition, which is fine. Depending upon the car, it also needs to be authentically original looking. There is and never was a standard for what a Dusenberg looked like from the factory, so perfection is the only standard. We know what a Mustang Boss 302 looked like when it rolled out of the factory, crayon markings and all, so that car needs to be perfect and original looking.

 

[drambuie]

So called concours judges are nothing but volunteers for the most part.

YEP !,They are in training, but by the time they graduate to the level of the international shows generally they know right from wrong.---Keoke

. And don't forget about all the politics attached to these events! A lot of old money and stuffed shirts.. Lol, I don't think our cars need to be judged....they just need to be driven and enjoyed! They can judge my exhaust fumes as i shift into fourth gear in the opposite direction!

 

[Keoke]

Which is essentially what the Concouse d'Elegance originally was--a competition of who had the prettiest car, and back then, old cars (restored or not) need not apply. It was for new.

WOT ! You been to Pebble Beach ??????

 

[DerekJ]

I think we need to differentiate between the Healey Concours judging for gold, silver and bronze certification and the run of the mill general concours. The Healey Concours people do an excellent job and their knowledge of the cars is second to none. As for the other types of concours, I don't really see the point, its comparing apples to oranges, may as well just have the popularity vote.

 

[vette]

. I don't think our cars need to be judged....they just need to be driven and enjoyed! They can judge my exhaust fumes as i shift into fourth gear in the opposite direction!

Right On! Like when I shift into OD at about 70 mph right along side the driver's door of the guy I'm passing.

 

[drambuie]

Which is essentially what the Concouse d'Elegance originally was--a competition of who had the prettiest car, and back then, old cars (restored or not) need not apply. It was for new.

WOT ! You been to Pebble Beach ??????

. Hi Keoke... Now that's a different animal, No never been there in person but only watched it on speed channel a few times. However I have been invited to exclusive art shows in Bali.... And stayed in a holiday inn!!! Lol. In any case, I never really intended to mix or compare Concours d'Elegance with some run of the mill so called concours events. I was more lamenting about how are Healeys are judged at such events. But then again, it really doesn't matter to many of us. However, I do really appreciate beautiful automotove art.

 

[gmlaverda]

An interesting sidenote: in 1953 the Best of Show winner at the Pebble Beach Concours was a 1953 Austin-Healey 100, owned by a Peter Clowes. This was the 3rd or 4th year of the event and was apparently a totally different animal then.

 

[HealeyRick]

An interesting sidenote: in 1953 the Best of Show winner at the Pebble Beach Concours was a 1953 Austin-Healey 100, owned by a Peter Clowes. This was the 3rd or 4th year of the event and was apparently a totally different animal then.

Entry: 1953 Austin Healey 100
Owner: Peter Clowes

 

[CLEAH]

An interesting sidenote: in 1953 the Best of Show winner at the Pebble Beach Concours was a 1953 Austin-Healey 100, owned by a Peter Clowes. This was the 3rd or 4th year of the event and was apparently a totally different animal then.

Right, as I said above, it was about pretty cars. In Europe in the '20s and '30s the concours were events to recognize gorgeous cars. They were new cars, typically one off coach built cars.