ignition woes .

[drambuie]

Update .
NEWS BULLETIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT RUNS WHOOOOO HOOOOOO:friendly_wink::emmersed::wink-new:
Turns out it was none of the tune up parts , Dizzy cap, leads , plugs , condenser points etc etc all ok. Valve timing bang on , ignition timing correct .

Turns out it was a faulty batter isolater switch . The main starter connection was good but the small black/white wire connection was still grounded with the isolation switch on so NO Spark . Fixed it now she runs and I can get the new timing light working and start some fine tuning and playing .
:excitement:

So, we can all assume all is well in Healey land? Congrats in evicting the little Grinch,just hope he doesn't show up in Chicago anytime soon!

 

[glemon]

Good news, that switch is a pain, I messed with mine quite a bit, my car always started, but would cut out from time to time, and it turned out to be the that darn switch, after some attempts at repair, that never did make it reliable I simply bypassed it. I usually have a thing about everything on my cars working as designed, but got over it with the battery switch and never missed it after I disabled it (simply attached both cables to one terminal, no problems with it after that).

Funny thing though, surprised nobody threw it out there as a possibility, fairly common problem (obviously not me, but one of you really smart guys:wink-new

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Good news, that switch is a pain, I messed with mine quite a bit, my car always started, but would cut out from time to time, and it turned out to be the that darn switch, after some attempts at repair, that never did make it reliable I simply bypassed it. I usually have a thing about everything on my cars working as designed, but got over it with the battery switch and never missed it after I disabled it (simply attached both cables to one terminal, no problems with it after that).

Funny thing though, surprised nobody threw it out there as a possibility, fairly common problem (obviously not me, but one of you really smart guys:wink-new

Glemon, If you start at the beginning of this post you'll note that the engine was firing and the symptons were backfiring out of the exhaust. This is not an indication of a bad battery switch. The thought crossed my mind(more than once) about the white/black stripe wire but if it's grounded you get no fire anywhere. I'm sure many guys who read the post at least thought about that wire/switch too but the symptons as reported did not support a bad switch or wire. If the switch was turned on & off during testing and was noted so and then all power/fire was lost then the focus might have changed.

 

[Healey Nut]

Glemon, If you start at the beginning of this post you'll note that the engine was firing and the symptons were backfiring out of the exhaust. This is not an indication of a bad battery switch. The thought crossed my mind(more than once) about the white/black stripe wire but if it's grounded you get no fire anywhere. I'm sure many guys who read the post at least thought about that wire/switch too but the symptons as reported did not support a bad switch or wire. If the switch was turned on & off during testing and was noted so and then all power/fire was lost then the focus might have changed.

Yep I got thrown for a loop with this one .
When I first started trying to get her to start I had everything , fuel spark etc but she just wouldnt pick up . So I started questioning valve/ignition timing etc . Once I had flattened the battery I gave up hooked up the charger and turned off my battery isolater , then when I had a 2nd shot at it I couldnt get a spark and thats when I got really confused . It wasnt until I started stealing parts off my 67 and comparing wiring resistances and valve positions and rotor arm positions etc I figured it out .
Now I can have some fun with my new timing light that I got for xmas ..... So it will be disco time with the lights out in my garage later .... lol
:eagerness:

 

[Tyrone]

Easy. At this point (pun?) the points are grounded. Electrically, that's what the distributor sees. Nylon insulator block on wrong side, spring of points on wrong side of block, just about anything.
Just use an ohmmeter, disconnect primary to distributor at coil, start checking.
You just never know what has come loose, fallen, shorting to ground.
Dave

I once had a broken wire inside the insulation on a coil lead. Just a thought.

 

[glemon]

Glemon, If you start at the beginning of this post you'll note that the engine was firing and the symptons were backfiring out of the exhaust. This is not an indication of a bad battery switch. The thought crossed my mind(more than once) about the white/black stripe wire but if it's grounded you get no fire anywhere. I'm sure many guys who read the post at least thought about that wire/switch too but the symptons as reported did not support a bad switch or wire. If the switch was turned on & off during testing and was noted so and then all power/fire was lost then the focus might have changed.

Actually as I read the beginning post, yes the car was backfiring out the exhaust, but then he changed the plugs and had no spark, so I was looking at the issue as no spark, hard to address the backfiring issue (which was no longer there, and after a rebuild probably related to the timing being a little off or even way off) if you don't have any spark. I tend to visualize car problems and was focusing on a mental image of the distributor and it's environs, as I think many of us probably were. Electrical problems are often head scratchers like this, the fix is simple, but figuring out the fix not so much. One of my methods, if I recently worked on the car, and it worked before, and I don't want to go through all the diagnostics tests in the manual, is to look at what I touched, or changed when I worked on the car and look for any issues there. Not faulting Healey Nut at all, because the switch is such a simple thing, and he didn't do anything but use it as intended (didn't "muck about with it") but yes you are right, if he had mentioned flipping the switch a light bulb might have gone off in a few more of our collective heads. Cheers, Greg

 

[Healey Nut]

As the saying goes we learn by our mistakes . And did I ever learn a few on this issue . If it hadnt been for my operational 67 and being able to compare stuff I would still be pulling my non-existant hair out and going postal by now . The wiring diagram shows the white/black wire as a ground and theres no little BTW note to tell you when the switch is on its not grounded . Just another thing that threw me for a loop .

 

[RAC68]

Actually, you are very lucky.

Back when my Healey was my only family car, I ran into a situation where the car would run normally and then, sometimes backfire, and stop. But, if I waited 5 minutes, it would usually start again until it failed completely and I eventually screwed up the starter trying.

Finally quitting on Saturday morning, I fixed the starter and began seriously focused on the search as I needed the car for work on Monday. Frustrated and having not found anything wrong, I began to curse the car and all who built it. With my head buried deep under the bonnet, I hadn’t noticed my wife passing by and hearing my complaints, extended “Did you look in the trunk?” in her not so loving tone. Responding sarcastically, I dismissed her suggestion thinking she knows nothing about mechanics.

Later that afternoon, I was getting another tool form the boot when I saw that black/white wire loosely hanging very close to the battery brace. Reattaching the wire to the switch, the car immediately started.

Now the second dilemma, do I tell my wife the problem was in the trunk and risk hearing about it for the rest of my life, or do I just tell her the problem was fixed and leave it at that. Well, my decision was a no brainer. The next day, retrieving some groceries from the boot, my wife happened to mention “I see you reattached that loose black/white wire.” I don’t know if she knew the purpose of that wire and I wasn’t taking that conversation any further and simply replied “yes”.

Good luck,
Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[Healey Nut]

So having got her started and played around with timing and various other running checks and tests I decided to see if I can get her in gear with the engine running . Not a chance , even with the engine at very low idle she grinds to much . Theres no change in RPM when I dip the clutch and the slave rod extends out of the cylinder just a hair under one inch of travel . I have bled the slave several times and am sure its not air locked .
Before I stripped the car the gearbox was smooth no isssues . OD all working . The only thing I changed was the release bearing as the carbon ring had separated from the housing . Clutch plate virtually like new lots left on it .
So before I get in deep and yank the gearbox are their any words of wisdom or things to try ?

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

So having got her started and played around with timing and various other running checks and tests I decided to see if I can get her in gear with the engine running . Not a chance , even with the engine at very low idle she grinds to much . Theres no change in RPM when I dip the clutch and the slave rod extends out of the cylinder just a hair under one inch of travel . I have bled the slave several times and am sure its not air locked .
Before I stripped the car the gearbox was smooth no isssues . OD all working . The only thing I changed was the release bearing as the carbon ring had separated from the housing . Clutch plate virtually like new lots left on it .
So before I get in deep and yank the gearbox are their any words of wisdom or things to try ?

If you haven't driven it in a while the clutch disk and flywheel might be stuck to each other. To free them up, if that's the case, start the car in gear and drive it in gear around the block until it unsticks itself. You'll know when it's unstuck because you'll be able to push in the clutch pedal and the engine will return to normal idle(as long as you keep your foot off the gas.
This happened to me a couple of times and also to other folks I know.

 

[Healey Nut]

If you haven't driven it in a while the clutch disk and flywheel might be stuck to each other. To free them up, if that's the case, start the car in gear and drive it in gear around the block until it unsticks itself. You'll know when it's unstuck because you'll be able to push in the clutch pedal and the engine will return to normal idle(as long as you keep your foot off the gas.
This happened to me a couple of times and also to other folks I know.

I doubt this is the case Patrick . Im doing a total ground up restoration on the car . I only put the engine / gearbox back together and in the car a couple of months ago . My cars sit for 6 months in the winter and never had an issue . As far as driving the car .......good luck with that check the pic for the cars present state , and besides that its around zero degrees F and the snowbanks are taller than the Healey.
Im beginning to wonder if its possible to put the clutch disc in reversed and would things still go together with it reversed ?

I would need Mukluks a fur coat and very heavy winter gloves to drive it right now , and something other than a milk crate to sit on LOL:smile-new::smile-new:

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

I doubt this is the case Patrick . Im doing a total ground up restoration on the car . I only put the engine / gearbox back together and in the car a couple of months ago . My cars sit for 6 months in the winter and never had an issue . As far as driving the car .......good luck with that check the pic for the cars present state , and besides that its around zero degrees F and the snowbanks are taller than the Healey.
Im beginning to wonder if its possible to put the clutch disc in reversed and would things still go together with it reversed ?

I would need Mukluks a fur coat and very heavy winter gloves to drive it right now , and something other than a milk crate to sit on LOL:smile-new::smile-new:

I lived in Florida back in the '70's and the stuck clutch disk/flywheel were a common thing with the humidty. Maybe your's is "iced" together? LOL I never put a disk in reversed so I can't help you there.

 

[Healey Nut]

I lived in Florida back in the '70's and the stuck clutch disk/flywheel were a common thing with the humidty. Maybe your's is "iced" together? LOL I never put a disk in reversed so I can't help you there.

I was just reading the bible (Haynes Manual) it does say to make sure the friction plate is installed the right way round but doesnt say what the symptoms of incorrect installation are . Its pretty idiot proof as far as re assembly the only thing you can do as far as I can see is put the disc in backwards . Everything else is fixed or dowelled etc ?
Looks like I maybe pulling the gearbox ??

BTW ....My garage is heated so no "iced clutches" here LOL

 

[GregW]

it does say to make sure the friction plate is installed the right way round but doesnt say what the symptoms of incorrect installation are .

Installing the disc backwards will interfere with the bolts that mount the flywheel to the crank. My dad had burned out a few clutches launching his boat. When I got the car from him, the inner portion of the bolt heads had been worn down almost to the flywheel. (Always seemed like his hearing was fine.)

 

[57_BN4]

Which type of clutch does it have- diaphragm or spring? A busted diaphragm will cause the problem you have, so will a badly adjusted spring setup. So will an improperly dowelled engine-to-gearbox. Do you have the two dowel bolts in their right locations?

Try putting it in 4th gear and having somebody hold the clutch to the floor, then rock it back and forth. If you can push the car then at least the clutch is trying to release. If you can feel a definite release/grab point that is in the middle of the travel but it still won't fully let go then one of the above scenarios are likely. If the release/grab point is right on the floor then hopefully you can find some more travel by bleeding the hydraulics.

Andy.

 

[Healey Nut]

Which type of clutch does it have- diaphragm or spring? A busted diaphragm will cause the problem you have, so will a badly adjusted spring setup. So will an improperly dowelled engine-to-gearbox. Do you have the two dowel bolts in their right locations?

.

Try putting it in 4th gear and having somebody hold the clutch to the floor, then rock it back and forth. If you can push the car then at least the clutch is trying to release. If you can feel a definite release/grab point that is in the middle of the travel but it still won't fully let go then one of the above scenarios are likely. If the release/grab point is right on the floor then hopefully you can find some more travel by bleeding the hydraulics.

Andy.

Which bolts do you mean .?? There were dowel pins to locate the clutch assembly to the engine so that cant be changed .
Its a diaphram clutch

Im going to try this and bleed the system again . Im thinking the loop over tube across the firewall may not be bled properly . Im going to dissconect it at the chassis to flex line and add a valve to the flare connection at that point ,then make sure its bled properly to that point then reconnect and try again . Im thinking although the slave cylinder rod is moving it doesnt have the hydraulic Umphhh to operate the internal parts which obviously I cant see ?

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Which bolts do you mean .?? There were dowel pins to locate the clutch assembly to the engine so that cant be changed .
Its a diaphram clutch

Im going to try this and bleed the system again . Im thinking the loop over tube across the firewall may not be bled properly . Im going to dissconect it at the chassis to flex line and add a valve to the flare connection at that point ,then make sure its bled properly to that point then reconnect and try again . Im thinking although the slave cylinder rod is moving it doesnt have the hydraulic Umphhh to operate the internal parts which obviously I cant see ?

Dowel bolt locations.

 

[Brinkerhoff]

Or your pilot bushing / input shaft isn't lubed properly to allow disengagement. Either way , if you have pushrod travel and it doesn't disengage you may still have to pull it apart which sucks.

 

[57_BN4]

There should be two bolts with no head marking, perhaps a lathe tool swirl but no makers name and they are slightly thicker than the others. they are supposed to centralize the gearbox on the engine. Check Patrick's pic and if you find regular bolts there then you'll have to loosen off all of them and re-centralize it. Really is a silly bit of engineering.

One way of bleeding the clutch is to take out the slave cylinder pushrod and pump the pedal gently until the slave piston sticks out of the cylinder a bit, then push it all the way back in quickly with a screwdriver. This forces the fluid and any air back to the reservoir.

Andy.

 

[andrea]

Good news, that switch is a pain, I messed with mine quite a bit, my car always started, but would cut out from time to time, and it turned out to be the that darn switch, after some attempts at repair, that never did make it reliable I simply bypassed it. I usually have a thing about everything on my cars working as designed, but got over it with the battery switch and never missed it after I disabled it (simply attached both cables to one terminal, no problems with it after that).

Funny thing though, surprised nobody threw it out there as a possibility, fairly common problem (obviously not me, but one of you really smart guys:wink-new

I also after the first road tests of the car, when strange ghosts trouble happened, immediately overcame the Battery switch, my black and white wire sleeping over the top of the tank (with good insulation) and the carpet cover -and battery grounded directly -all the ghost trouble disappeared, car gain immediately up to 40% in affidability, my battery switch stay
in the original position for the delight of orthodox, cut off of battery is make by a more affidable screw cut off on the other battery pole
The original B Switch are a Anti Owner satisfaction tip- than a effective Anti Theft
One short story
some years ago me and a my friends completely rebuild a flooded Jaguar E type coupe, at the first start the engine won't run on-days and nights tentatives don't have success- We asked help to one friend that are the engineer chief of the workshop of the local public transports, he came on the garage and asked for a start test, stopped it after few second, go on the dizzy and inverted of 180 degree it- the engine starts immediately.....