Framectomy - what would you do?

[Randy Harris]

Randy, If you think your upside down on the car now.....just wait to see what it would cost to have someone put a new frame under the car! Not to mention the cost of the new frame and related other little things you will pay for. Even if you did shell out a ton of money for all this work.....add all the money you currently have in the car and then add the quote for a new frame AND labor. Then go to eBay and see what prices Healeys in nice condition have sold for! My best advice is to run a test auction and a few adds in a major publication and see what buyers are out there BEFORE you attempt to dump another ton of money in the car. Remember, it's a Healey....it will sell!

Well, the good news is I'm nowhere near upside down on the car. Remember I've owned it for nearly 16 years and bought it right back then. As expensive as it was to restore, values have more than kept pace and I doubt that I would lose so much as to be upside down if I sold it as is. But, hey, it's possible.

 

[AUSMHLY]

I'm all about being transparent. It would be foolish to try to sell the car without full disclosure. The question is whether it makes sense to replace the frame or sell as is.

The car is a solid #2. All matching numbers Healey. From 5 feet away it looks like a show car and in fact it has shown very well on the grass over many years - but not Concours. The interior is all custom Heritage. The body is near-perfect and the paint is great. Other than a few bits that could use re-chroming, the car needs nothing. So if I were to separate it from its frame it wouldn't need much more than a few fasteners, new fluids, maybe a few hoses, touch ups here and there. The question is then, how much work is there really involved in removing the car from the frame and then replacing it so that it all goes back together as original? If that was a $10k job, it would be worth it to me to do this. If it's a $20k job, probably not a great plan. Unfortunately I injured my back 10 years ago and cannot do much of the work myself. I appreciate all of your comments, they have been most helpful.

"So if I were to separate it from its frame"
Healey's don't have a "frame" like most modern cars.
Some jobs people don't really know what they're getting into. Now you do
View attachment 30318

 

[CLEAH]

Replacing the frame will require nearly the complete disassembly of the car. This is not a body on frame--the "frame" is really the big long part of a semi-monocoque system of welded parts that, put together, form a rigid whole. So, off comes all the body panels, engine, trans, suspension, interior, wiring and lines that attach to the frame, then cut the scuttles off the frame...reverse order for reassembly. Probably the best bet is to only replace the offending pieces with new parts, thereby necessitating disassembly of just the back half of the car, which is probably the simpler half anyway.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

I met a guy from NJ that did a Jule frame and has nothing but trouble nothing fit right and had a lot of issues with them and they blu him off

I have a Jule Frame and everything does "fit", but you have to massage some things into place just like the Factory had to. The bodyshop that did the bodywork did not pay attention to the chrome trim I gave them to check the fit of the doors and fenders and had to go back and make them fit. Previous 1976 bodywork that was substandard didn't help either. Martin always retirned my calls even when he was on the road. I did have some issues that I couldn't figure out and were taken care of with a phone call. The hardest part when I received mu Jule (painted chassis), was getting started. Seat track holes were not included nor were the fuel & brake line holes but I got it all in. My Heritage Interior install is my last project and there's things they don't tell you either, but then again, it is assumed that you know how to and where to begin. Most guys that restore a Healey is and only the first and last car they will do. With this Forum it couldn't be any easier to post a question and photo and get one back and it's FREE advice. Yes, I learned a lot on doing frame-up and without the Forum things would have been a whole lot harder.

I have good free advice to anyone considering doing a Jule Frame or Heritage interior install.

 

[Randy Harris]

Replacing the frame will require nearly the complete disassembly of the car. This is not a body on frame--the "frame" is really the big long part of a semi-monocoque system of welded parts that, put together, form a rigid whole. So, off comes all the body panels, engine, trans, suspension, interior, wiring and lines that attach to the frame, then cut the scuttles off the frame...reverse order for reassembly. Probably the best bet is to only replace the offending pieces with new parts, thereby necessitating disassembly of just the back half of the car, which is probably the simpler half anyway.

Yes, this was the approach I wanted to take at first. Find a solid, no-rust, true rear frame section, remove my offending bits and replace them with the good ones.
I've managed three restos... I know this isn't a three foot putt, but it isn't exactly rocket science either. The question is can I find someone competent to do the job well. Can I find a donor frame?
Can I afford to do this? Does it even make sense at all?

 

[Randy Harris]

"So if I were to separate it from its frame"
Healey's don't have a "frame" like most modern cars.
Some jobs people don't really know what they're getting into. Now you do
View attachment 30318

I suppose that may be true in the technical sense. But for purposes of this discussion I think that most everyone here understands that when I speak of the "frame", I'm referring to the tubular undercarraige that sits beneath our butts on the road.

 

[Randy Harris]

"So if I were to separate it from its frame"
Healey's don't have a "frame" like most modern cars.
Some jobs people don't really know what they're getting into. Now you do
View attachment 30318

As for not knowing what I was getting into, well, I did know that the frame was hinky shortly after I purchased the car in 1997. I chose to go forward with the restoration thinking I would never be separated from the car. As you know Roger, I've considered selling her for years but could never bring myself to do it. Life throws us curves and we roll with them. In this case the car goes because it isn't being driven - best reason I can think of. Yeah, I had my eyes wide open and I knew what I was getting into. One thing we can all agree on - car restos are not for sissies!

 

[Brinkerhoff]

I've done a few Healeys, enough to know that you won't get a new chassis ( Jule or Kilmartin) under your Healey for 20 grand since you'll be re working EVERYTHING ! There is no way around it: ALL the sheetmetal will need to be reworked and repainted . You may be able to keep most of your interior etc. but you'll have to take the whole car apart to do it right. It needs to be totally restored to do right but what's the point?

 

[AUSMHLY]

I suppose that may be true in the technical sense. But for purposes of this discussion I think that most everyone here understands that when I speak of the "frame", I'm referring to the tubular undercarraige that sits beneath our butts on the road.

CLEAH explained the situation very well...

Replacing the frame will require nearly the complete disassembly of the car. This is not a body on frame--the "frame" is really the big long part of a semi-monocoque system of welded parts that, put together, form a rigid whole. So, off comes all the body panels, engine, trans, suspension, interior, wiring and lines that attach to the frame, then cut the scuttles off the frame...reverse order for reassembly. Probably the best bet is to only replace the offending pieces with new parts, thereby necessitating disassembly of just the back half of the car, which is probably the simpler half anyway.

I posted a photo which show's how big a "frame" project this is.
View attachment 30320

 

[DerekJ]

Randy, I really believe that what you are proposing to do makes no sense whatsoever and if you do it you will be seriously out of pocket compared to selling the car as is.

 

[glemon]

I agree with those who suggest that the best thing to do is sell the car as is with full disclosure, as previously stated it is not as simple as simply unbolting the body and the rest of the bits from the frame and bolting everything back up with a big Healey (although you can in fact do that with the TRs, with some body bracing in the doors to hold everything square, but it is still a lot of work, but just nuts and bolts and not welding and fitting). But in addition to that, although certainly entitled to their opinion, I disagree with those that imply the car is a rolling deathtrap and shouldn't be sold as is. Here is why: 1. The seller has had the car independently inspected and the inspector stated repairs were as strong or stronger than original, which is certainly possible to do with additional gusseting of repairs and proper welding; 2. Seller has driven the car for 15 years, states it is solid, drives well, etc. 3. The method these cars were designed and manufactured was not that sophisticated, and the simple metal fabrication and welding used to make the cars can also be used to fix the cars; My own opinion I guess, but a catastrophic structural failure resulting in immediate loss of control of the car and possible injury would most likely occur from a suspension mounting point or piece breaking or coming askew, I really cannot imagine a frame rail, for example, simply letting go without any warning and the car falling apart. In addition, if I were that risk averse I could not imagine driving a small, 50 year old convertible with absolutely no modern safety features such as roll bar, dual brake circuit, or designed crumple zones or designed in 3 point belt mounts. In addition, a 50 year old original Healey frame could have paper thin points from internal rust through or weak points from metal fatigue, repaired or not. I drove a 100 that had been crudely but strongly welded up from a very rusty original, it was solid and safe when I drove it for over ten years, in fact I was very impressed with how rigid the structure was. There is nothing wrong with selling the car as is with full disclosure, the hit it takes on selling price will probably be proportional or even out of proportion to the end of the scale the car sells on, i.e., might cause a 20-30k hit in on otherwise perfect could have been 100k show car, but maybe more like a 5k hit on a 35-50k nice driver. As you can tell from the comments here, there are plenty of people who would be happy to get a nice looking, nice driving car that only looks bad from underneath, for bit of a discount, and that is how I felt when I bought my 100, there are others who wouldn't touch such a car, or would immediately factor in the cost of rectifying into the purchase price, but the demand for these cars is such that there are many that would like to join the club, but can't afford the high price of admission demanded by perfection.

 

[Healey Nut]

The thing I dont get about this post is why would you dump so much time into restoring the car and not either fix the frame properly or replace it entirely?
I have seen and chatted with numerous Healey owners and they tell you they restored the car . You look at it from 20ft and its got a nice new paint job . You pop the bonnett and find the engine bay original wiring all falling apart obvious accident damage on the dog legs and when you look underneath the out riggers are shot and the main frame rails are very questionable . When you chat further with the owner they tell you they are going to do the rest later !!!! WTF !!!
Proper restoration starts from the ground up . Properly repaired straight frame and or new frame . Correct superstructure all repaired and all exterior body panels test fitted and checked for alignment . Then and only then do you think about primer paint and rebuild . If the frame and superstructure is not sound straight and correct then the finished car will look like a dogs breakfast let alone drive well and straight .
The way I have done my two cars and will be doing my third will be this way .
I have all the metalwork done test fitted and checked . Paint the superstructure and the inside of all the wings doors and shrouds . Then turn the superstructure into a full rolling chassis with operational engine gearbox and instruments etc . Refit all exterior body panels and send it back for exterior paint , Then finish it off make it pretty with all the trim and finish work .
Then drive the wheels off it and enjoy .
Im sure others will agree and dissagree with the way I have done my cars but the results in my opinion are well worth it .

 

[glemon]

I don't disagree that this is the right way to do it, but there is no test or qualifications for ownership, and ignorance, impatience, lack of funds, lack of skills and tools, and generally a combination of some of the above, is the reason why they weren't all restored or repaired as they should have been. Twenty years ago project cars were hundreds of dollars, not thousands, and 30 years ago the cars were often owned and traded among impecunious young men, and the ubiquitous cheap home mig welder for ez amateur metal repairs was years away, so bondo and paint "restorations" were quite common for those that wanted a nice looking ride on a budget.

 

[Randy Harris]

The car was restored over a 12 month period by one of Northern California's oldest Healey resto houses. It was a body off resto with engine and drive train in situ. I was informed, sadly very late into the job, (that's another story) that the frame was bodged up. By then I had so much money into the car that I couldn't and wouldn't go back. The frame was deemed strong and safe. The body shop that worked on the car squared it up to perfection. I made a conscious decision to accept that the frame was ugly and to proceed. I was on a tight budget, which I had blown due to other surprises found along the way.

The fact that the rear frame tubes are ugly due to sloppy welds doesn't mean that the car isn't sound. In fact it's a marvelous Healey in nearly every respect. It is an all numbers matching BJ8. You could eat off the engine or drive train which has been detailed to a very high level. The entire wireing loom was replaced. The car was taken to bare metal and given a super nice original-color paint job. It is 100% rust free. The interior is like new with custom Heritage hides and it sports a matching canvas top. Nearly every significant piece of the car was either renewed or replaced. It was not restored to be a show car, but it's ****ed close. It was meant to be as nice of a driver as possible given my talent and budget 16 years ago.

I know how to do a proper Concours restoration. This isn't nor was it ever intended to be one. I don't know what I'll do next. The consensus here seems to be that I should sell it as is and take the hit. Maybe I'll do that. Let the market decide whether I made the right choice.

 

[Frameman]

I agree with those who suggest that the best thing to do is sell the car as is with full disclosure, as previously stated it is not as simple as simply unbolting the body and the rest of the bits from the frame and bolting everything back up with a big Healey (although you can in fact do that with the TRs, with some body bracing in the doors to hold everything square, but it is still a lot of work, but just nuts and bolts and not welding and fitting). But in addition to that, although certainly entitled to their opinion, I disagree with those that imply the car is a rolling deathtrap and shouldn't be sold as is. Here is why: 1. The seller has had the car independently inspected and the inspector stated repairs were as strong or stronger than original, which is certainly possible to do with additional gusseting of repairs and proper welding; 2. Seller has driven the car for 15 years, states it is solid, drives well, etc. 3. The method these cars were designed and manufactured was not that sophisticated, and the simple metal fabrication and welding used to make the cars can also be used to fix the cars; My own opinion I guess, but a catastrophic structural failure resulting in immediate loss of control of the car and possible injury would most likely occur from a suspension mounting point or piece breaking or coming askew, I really cannot imagine a frame rail, for example, simply letting go without any warning and the car falling apart. In addition, if I were that risk averse I could not imagine driving a small, 50 year old convertible with absolutely no modern safety features such as roll bar, dual brake circuit, or designed crumple zones or designed in 3 point belt mounts. In addition, a 50 year old original Healey frame could have paper thin points from internal rust through or weak points from metal fatigue, repaired or not. I drove a 100 that had been crudely but strongly welded up from a very rusty original, it was solid and safe when I drove it for over ten years, in fact I was very impressed with how rigid the structure was. There is nothing wrong with selling the car as is with full disclosure, the hit it takes on selling price will probably be proportional or even out of proportion to the end of the scale the car sells on, i.e., might cause a 20-30k hit in on otherwise perfect could have been 100k show car, but maybe more like a 5k hit on a 35-50k nice driver. As you can tell from the comments here, there are plenty of people who would be happy to get a nice looking, nice driving car that only looks bad from underneath, for bit of a discount, and that is how I felt when I bought my 100, there are others who wouldn't touch such a car, or would immediately factor in the cost of rectifying into the purchase price, but the demand for these cars is such that there are many that would like to join the club, but can't afford the high price of admission demanded by perfection.

When I was 17 I bought a car that had a chassis that had been grafted together and it broke causing an accident which resulted in my back being broken. All these years later I can still feel the effects of that collision. So yes it can happen. It was a nice looking car that I thought and others thought it was safe. This is one reason why I feel so strongly about the importance of a solid frame.
Marty