100 Madness

[Editor_Reid]

Certainly agree Reid. This has been a sore point of mine. Factory 100M's are Factory 100M's. Certain dealer were issued 100M Kits but they were not recorded and the dealers did not keep records of where the parts went for the most part. or were they sold as complete kits. I recently sold a BN1 that had a dealer installed louvered bonnet and larger sway bar a month after original purchase. Only part of a Kit.

Regarding the Factory 100M's I support Bill Meade and his 100M Registry (both my factory 100M's are recorded with him) but feel that by allowing cars converted to 100M spec into the registry has muddied the waters. Why should a converted to 100M spec car, with new parts, built recently be allowed into the 100M registry? (I understand they are in a separate category)

May be I'm just too much of a purist but I don't get it or agree.

Thanks Randy, but let’s be careful with the terminology. There was no such thing as a “100M kit.” There was the “Le Mans Engine Modification Kit,” which includes some – but not all – of the components that make a 100M. Installing the kit does not make a car a 100M; it makes it a car with a “kit” – an aftermarket accessory – installed, and that kit does not include everything that a 100M had anyway.

I see your point about how it might be better not to register kit-equipped cars. There’s no telling how much of the kit was installed, who installed it or when, and it does, obviously, tend to confuse the issue for some.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

On another note, it's my understanding that some factory/legitimate 100Ms came with the higher compression pistons and some did not (resulting in a difference of about 10HP). Was there any reason/explanation why some would have the pistons and some wouldn't, and any way to tell other than pulling the head and looking at the pistons? Or is my understanding a misunderstanding?

 

[RandyHicks]

Thanks Randy, but let’s be careful with the terminology. There was no such thing as a “100M kit.” There was the “Le Mans Engine Modification Kit,”

Point well taken. My error.

 

[Editor_Reid]

On another note, it's my understanding that some factory/legitimate 100Ms came with the higher compression pistons and some did not (resulting in a difference of about 10HP). Was there any reason/explanation why some would have the pistons and some wouldn't, and any way to tell other than pulling the head and looking at the pistons? Or is my understanding a misunderstanding?

I've never heard of it. Of course anything is possible. The high-compression pistons were part of the 100M specification, and yes, they added 8-10 HP. If a few 100Ms went to market without them, well, anything's possible, but such errors/anomalies are just curiosities. Some early 3000s were sold with 100-6 grille badges, but that doesn't mean anything other than that they had the wrong grille badge.

 

[glemon]

Bob and Reid, I suspected and confirmed by re-reading the 100M sections of the Clausager and Piggot books that the high compression pistons were optional on the Le Mans kit, but standard on the factory Ms, at least that is what the books say.

 

[Editor_Reid]

Bob and Reid, I suspected and confirmed by re-reading the 100M sections of the Clausager and Piggot books that the high compression pistons were optional on the Le Mans kit, but standard on the factory Ms, at least that is what the books say.

The high-compression pistons were not part of the Le Mans Kit. They were something that could be bought separately - no relation to the kit.

 

[bighealeysource]

Hey all,
Have to admit, this is one topic that always generates a lot of comments ! I agree that the true 100M's are the documented 640 cars from the Healey works production files with the Jensen louvered hoods noted on the cards. Everything else is hearsay, subjective, etc. Know Geoff Healey mentioned a higher number, the infamous 1159 I think, but even he later said no one knew for sure how many were made and how many of those were either dealer installed LeMans kits or Healey's brought back to the factory for the conversion. Since the majority of all cars made were left hand drive, I cannot imagine a lot of cars being brought back to the UK for this conversion because as soon as they were built, headed off on transporters to the docks for export as Britain and Healey both needed the US dollars. The production files as reviewed clearly showed the "louvered bonnet" as an option on factory built cars so that is our benchmark figure. As to adding the LeMans kit modified cars to the 100M Registry, actually think that makes sense to keep them registered as well so there is a distinction between the two categories. I had a BN1 that I added to the Registry as a converted Healey prior to purchasing my factory 100M and definitely felt it added value to the BN1.
Regards,
Mike

PS - Hey Irene, will be at Amelia Island for the weekend so maybe catch up with each other ! I'll PM you my cell phone number. Gonna have to get you into a big Healey !!!!

 

[MarshgrassA]

The 100M story continues with another question about the 100M at the Gooding Auction at Amelia (still not a bidder though wish I could be). Car is listed as 1956 Healey 100M Chasis BN2-L/232183 and Engine 1B/232183M for estimate of 125,000 to 165,000. Is this one a real M and is the value difference between the RM Dealer Prepared 100M BN2 at 110,000-120,000 a realistic spread in the actual value of these 2 cars?

Mike,
I am a maybe for Amelia this year but I am going next year....good Lord willing! I still have the Healey bug pretty bad but after I got the TR4A I promised my husband I would not mention Healey in the house again and I would never have more than 2 LBC's at a time. He still brings it up every now and then to folks about how I would love to have a Healey! I could sell the TR4A but I don't think I would ever sell the MGA. Who knows maybe our garage will house a Healey and a MGA sometime in the future.

 

[Editor_Reid]

The 100M story continues with another question about the 100M at the Gooding Auction at Amelia (still not a bidder though wish I could be). Car is listed as 1956 Healey 100M Chasis BN2-L/232183 and Engine 1B/232183M for estimate of 125,000 to 165,000. Is this one a real M and is the value difference between the RM Dealer Prepared 100M BN2 at 110,000-120,000 a realistic spread in the actual value of these 2 cars?

(Links to the webpages of the cars you reference would be very handy.)

Re Lot 44 at Gooding Amelia: The estimate of $125,000-165,000 for a legit 100M in excellent condition is very realistic. More is not out of the question for exceptional condition. Less for a really nice one would be a good buy.

Re Lot 135 at RM Amelia: The item description for this car absolutely reeks of one written to deliberately blur the difference between a 100M and a car equipped with a Le Mans Kit. First, they call it a 100M. It is not a 100M. Second, they state that the kit makes a car identical in specification to a 100M. It does not. Third, if it is a "dealer-prepared Le Mans spec car", I would want to see the documentation. Without convincing documentation, it's just another 100 with maybe all or maybe only part of a Le Mans Kit that may have been installed last month and may be composed of reproduction kit components. This one really smells. The estimate of $110,000-120,000 is quite high. If it truly is a car with real Le Mans Kit components installed in period by a dealer and with documentation to back that up, $60,000-80,000 would be about right. If it doesn't have documentation and/or if the kit is incomplete and/or is composed of reproduction parts, then maybe $40,000-70,000, and at the high end of that range only if the restoration is really excellent. Note also that the description states H4 carbs, which is incorrect for a 100M or even a Kit-equipped car; note the position of the ignition switch and overdrive switch are reversed from where they should be for a BN2, but are correct for a BN1, so is this car a BN1 or a BN2, or a car built from parts or what?; note the incorrect paint break line where the black meets the front wheel openings - are those BN1 fenders?; note the over-restored engine compartment - extra shiny stuff often appeals to the many ill-informed buyers at auctions though; it has a three-speed BN1 shift knob - VERY strange when it appears to have a BN2, four-speed gearbox; the unrestored trafficator is missing its lever, etc. Lots of red flags on this one and I’d bet lots of “stories” to go with them, but to return to the original point, it is incorrectly labeled a 100M when it just flat is not a 100M.

 

[glemon]

The high-compression pistons were not part of the Le Mans Kit. They were something that could be bought separately - no relation to the kit.

Well as you stated earlier when a car went into Warwick for "Le Mans Modification" modification any number of mods could be carried out, but I guess I should have said it was offered as a period modification in conjunction with the Le Mans kit, the period literature and later publications often talk about the cars making 100 hp with the kit or 110 with the kit and high compression pistons, so it seemed to be viewed as kind of an adjunct to the kit if not part of it. The period literature and magazine articles are also a little conflicted with some talking about high compression 8.1 pistons, and some talk about a high compression steel head gasket, although I think it has since been established that the Le Mans kit in fact came with the steel head gasket. The muscle car guys seem to have simplified things pretty much by calling factory Shelby's and what not real, and cars converted with aftermarket parts replicas or clones, but it does make it easy to see how the waters are muddied in the case of the 100 because: 1. The Factory M was in essence a decision pushed by Healey to make a production model out of the kit that was already being sold and that Healey was installing on both new and used cars at Warwick so they could move more 100s and DMH could make some money on the side. 2. Healey continued to install the kit after the production M was made in in all probability there were "Le Mans kit" cars at being created at Warwick alongside factory Ms being converted there. 3. The factory M, with the exception of a couple of body mods such as the hood strap and louvres, was built as a regular BN2 100 and then converted with the go fast goodies at Warwick (similar to what would be done to a new car fitted with the Le Mans kit). 4. Although I certainly believe anyone who says they are not aware of any documented known cars of the 640 fitted with the louvred hood and not the other go fast bits, I have a lot of Healey books that seem to point to it as a likelihood, but maybe it is just the vintage car version of an urban legend, often repeated with little basis in fact. Sorry for the run on paragraph, the combination of the new forum and my new computer do not allow me the luxury of making line breaks. Speaking of Factory Ms, years ago I was at the Healeywerks in Lawton Iowa and Craig showed me what he said was the first 100M made, it was in rough shape and this was about 10-12 years ago, anybody know if the "first M made" is in fact a known vehicle today?

 

[Editor_Reid]

Greg, well done! I don't know if you care or not, but I agree with what you've stated. A few additional notes:

When the Le Mans Engine Modification Kit, Part No. P.280, was first offered, it was described in a booklet, Austin Publication No. 1131, "Special Equipment and Tuning Instructions." The steel-face cylinder head gasket was indeed part of the kit.

That booklet listed many other "special equipment" items, and it is notable that no pistons are listed, high-compression or otherwise. My conclusion is that the high-compression pistons were not something that was available at the beginning of promoting the Le Mans Kit, but was something that came along later. When? We don't know, but it seems apparent that the Kit was offered for some period of time before the high-compression pistons became an option. My belief is that most cars that got the kit did not get the high-compression pistons. The Kits would have been purchased by owners, and some by dealers, and installed before the pistons were even an option. Even after they became an option, the Kit remained a discrete item - with its own Austin part number - and would, I feel, have been ordered and purchased on its own most often, although yes, also sometimes with other items.

If we ever find one of the 640 "louvered bonnet" cars that can verifiably be shown to have never been made into a 100M, then I will believe it, but until we have evidence - not just hearsay - I will remain very skeptical on that issue. I personally think that it is much more likely that some cars may have had louvered bonnets fitted in preparation for shipment to hot climates, but that they were not part of the 640. That would account for both Geoff Healey's recollection of some cars leaving Warwick with louvered bonnets but not the entire 100M specification, and the fact that we have never yet found one of the 640 that wasn't a 100M. Others may choose to believe otherwise. However, I'll wait for real evidence before agreeing with them.

 

[bighealeysource]

Reid's post about the two different cars being sold recently or next week perfectly demonstrate why the 100M Registry founded by Bill Meade is so important. Not that every 100M built is currently registered but with 183 now registered and that figure thought to be about 99% of all remaining cars, good chance any 100M that comes up for sale will be part of the 100M Registry. All I know is if I was looking to buy what I thought to be a factory "one of the 640" cars, I sure would check to see if it was registered and if not, why not ! It was mentioned earlier about muscle cars and clones of muscle cars. Same thing here, if I was looking to buy an early Pontiac GTO, if it does not have PHS documentation, it is not a real GTO until a lot of homework is done to prove the authenticity. Same for Hemi Mopars and Shelby GT350's, etc. Too easy to duplicate and with the values of 100M's continuing to rise, too tempting to do the same.
Regards,
Mike

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Wonder if the steel-faced head gasket was installed to contain the higher compression ratio, or to help prevent the common coolant leak between #2 and #3 cylinders, or both. I don't believe the 6-cyl cars, with 9:1 compression ratio, came with steel gaskets. When we rebuilt our M's engine we used the copper-faced gasket that came in the top end gasket kit, and so far we've had no problems (but we've only run maybe 50miles).

 

[judow]

I am really surprised at the controversy generated in this discussion. I was also surprised at the deletion of Healey 100's thread. Don't know what was said but... Having expressed my reaction, I stand behind Reid and Bill Meade. I am proud to be a caretaker to my factory certified 100M but Agatha is a driver and the pleasure she affords me can't be measured in dollars. It is of course gratifying but when she was restored we had no idea of her value in the Healey world and it has and will be all about the driving.

 

[Randy Forbes]

... PS - Hey Irene, will be at Amelia Island for the weekend so maybe catch up with each other ! I'll PM you my cell phone number. Gonna have to get you into a big Healey !!!!

I'm not about to enter this firestorm, but just wanted to let you know that Sue & I will be attending the Amelia Island Concours too. While we didn't get booked at The Ritz in time, we are staying on the island, I think it's the Comfort Inn & Suites. My cell #: 419 350 1098

We'll be at Sebring (for some of the) 12 Hours the following weekend; based out of the BMWCCA Corral.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Wonder if the steel-faced head gasket was installed to contain the higher compression ratio, or to help prevent the common coolant leak between #2 and #3 cylinders, or both. I don't believe the 6-cyl cars, with 9:1 compression ratio, came with steel gaskets. When we rebuilt our M's engine we used the copper-faced gasket that came in the top end gasket kit, and so far we've had no problems (but we've only run maybe 50miles).

Several years ago(over 40), I came across a Head gasket set labled as a "decarbonizing gasket set" for a 100-6. It had a steel head gasket in it. It's thinner so I suppose it's purpose was to raise compression. With so many heads warped I can only assume that they fell by the wayside because of that.

 

[pan]

Hi everybody,
Reid's comment about the possibility of 'cars destined for warmer climates may have had bonnet louvres' got me thinking. Climates don't come much warmer than Queensland, and I know of no 100 sold here that had a M type bonnet from new. My own 100 was sold new in England for personal export so if the option was available I'm sure the first owner, a Mr. Terrence Hanlon would have been advised to order it. The car does now have a louvred bonnet but I fitted that in 1972. It is copied off the genuine pattern but the shape & dimensions of the louvres differ. At a recent National meet I noticed another 100 with identical louvres, so I think it is possible that a series of them were done here in Australia.

 

[judow]

Irene, I like the way you think...

 

[MarshgrassA]

Judow,
Thanks and sorry to hear that "Agatha" has been dethroned.

Now that I have signed up for Healey 101 can one of you recommend a good book with lots of pictures to help in my learning curve?

 

[bighealeysource]

Hey Irene,
If you're a 100 type of gal, get Bill Piggott's "Austin Healey 100 in Detail". Can usually find it on ebay for about $40+. Then I would get Anders Clausager's "Original Austin Healey" which covers all models. Also, join the two Healey Clubs, Austin Healey Club of America ( AHCA) and Austin Healey Club USA ( AHUSA). Both bring a lot to the party and provide a lot of good info.

Hope to see you and the rest of the British Car CLub of Charleston at the April 6th Midlands show in Columbia.

Regards,
Mike