Property boundaries!

[mezy]

Thanks Mezy. Some of those I've been using - but so far they all depend on digital maps of boundary lines that are based on other digital maps of boundary lines. None actually have geographic locations which are what I need. You can overlay a "map" on satellite imagery, but you're only guessing when you get down to actually finding a specific point (GPS location, latitude/longitude in degrees, minutes, seconds, etc.).

Also, I'd bet that most people these days assume fences mark boundaries. They're usually close in cities, but many people discover the fences are put in where people *think* the boundaries are, without having a legal survey made. In the UK, boundaries have been "legally standardized" for centuries. Here in North America, boundaries have been standardized only for 50-100 years in many places.

Will keep trying!
Tom M.

just take what you need and thrash some posts in the ground, how will anyone prove that its not your boundry if you or anyone else cant prove that it is.
Here in the Uk if you take care of a piece of ground for ten years, you can claim it.

 

[NutmegCT]

That is an interesting idea! I could go into the wooded area, pound in some iron rods, and add a few "No Trespassing" signs.

If someone wants to say "No - that's my land" - I'd just say Prove it! A professional land surveyor would charge around $10,000 for deed searches back to the 1600s, and actually walking the land.

Of course, if the other party says "Prove it!" to me - then I'm out the $10K. No way can I afford that.

gak

And this all resulted from me wanting to rough in a walking trail around my property without trespassing.

 

[JPSmit]

Thank you JP!

I'll keep plugging along with all these, but it seems all the references take me to maps and views, but none have actual physical points and measurements. If you know at least two points you can probably find all the points. But you have to know the points first!

For example, in post #24, you show the old lot boundaries. But those don't tell you how to actually find the boundaries when you're walking the land.

Onward through the fog!
TM

The point of the links is not so much where they exist but THAT they exist. the fact that they exist means someone knows where they are.

 

[JPSmit]

Also, I'd bet that most people these days assume fences mark boundaries. They're usually close in cities, but many people discover the fences are put in where people *think* the boundaries are, without having a legal survey made. In the UK, boundaries have been "legally standardized" for centuries. Here in North America, boundaries have been standardized only for 50-100 years in many places.

Will keep trying!
Tom M.

Yes they have only been around for 50-100 years but they have been standardized for the whole country - particularly if the properties change hands. Ain't no bank in the world going to accept 'about over there' as part of a legal property description for a mortgage.

 

[JPSmit]

And this all resulted from me wanting to rough in a walking trail around my property without trespassing.

For goodness sake - just start walking. (or talk to your neigbors and get their input)

 

[mezy]

That is an interesting idea! I could go into the wooded area, pound in some iron rods, and add a few "No Trespassing" signs.

If someone wants to say "No - that's my land" - I'd just say Prove it! A professional land surveyor would charge around $10,000 for deed searches back to the 1600s, and actually walking the land.

Of course, if the other party says "Prove it!" to me - then I'm out the $10K. No way can I afford that.

gak

And this all resulted from me wanting to rough in a walking trail around my property without trespassing.

but you could also say, "do your title deeds show your boundary adjasent to mine" " i would love to see it".
but if his title deeds are like yours and doesnt show his boundry, then your back to square one,
But surely at least one of your neighbours has deeds showing a boundary. give you a starting point

 

[NutmegCT]

For goodness sake - just start walking.

JP - I think I hit a nerve. Sorry.

Banks often ok a mortgage application if the title to the property is clear, and there were no title or boundary disputes registered in the previous transfers.

Tom M.
Peace

 

[Bob McElwee]

Tom, do you pay real estate or ptoperty taxes on your home and land?

 

[NutmegCT]

Property taxes-- you bet! They go up about 5% per year.

grumble grumble

 

[JPSmit]

JP - I think I hit a nerve. Sorry.

Banks often ok a mortgage application if the title to the property is clear, and there were no title or boundary disputes registered in the previous transfers.

Tom M.
Peace

Not a nerve at all, more of a 'oh that's what you want to do!' I am the master of 'overthinking' solutions or projects that get bigger and bigger in my mind. (recent example - a repair that took over a year to initiate and less than a morning to complete. )

let me also tell you about the 'stain' on the ceiling when we lived in Florida that I looked at for four years assuming I would need to repaint the entire ceiling. Finally when we were preparing to list the house I actually got up to inpect and it was dust - gone in 45 seconds. My point is simply that if you are wanting a path, this doesn't really require a survey. Start walking and if someone complains move 5 feet to the left (or right) and start again.

 

[NutmegCT]

Tom, do you pay real estate or ptoperty taxes on your home and land?

Bob - I do pay property taxes. Is there a connection between that and details of the legal boundaries? My tax assessment is based on "use" (single family residence) and "acreage" (20 acres woodland). The annual statement shows the same boundary lines as all the other records, ie no physical description of specifics.

If you're rather go private just PM me ("start a conversation")

Thanks for the help.
Tom M.

 

[waltesefalcon]

I like JP's solution of walking. Take a stab at what you think the boundary is and start roughing in your path. Worst case scenario is that a neighbor complains. If that does indeed happen maybe they have a landmark to survey from. Otherwise, they are just guessing themselves.

 

[NutmegCT]

Good idea - but ... if I "encroach" on neighbor's property, neighbor can demand proof of my line. Proof would be a professional survey. Professional survey here starts around $10K. Can't take the risk. I want to see proof myself before getting caught in the "lawsuit survey" trap.

 

[Bob McElwee]

Tom, sorry for the delay, it’s been a hectic day.
How did the taxing authority determine the property was originally 20 acres? I have to believe somewhere someone is an accurate survey for the taxing authority. The challenge seems to be where that stuff has been stored over the years.
I’m only familiar with what was done in MO. You could go from very large tracks to down to subdivisions to individual lots. With starting points. I was able to fine a buried iron stake some 50 years or so after the original lot had been laid out
Maybe check with some title companies on how they verify the property descriptions on sales.

 

[Bob McElwee]

Tom, have you had any luck in figuring out your property lines?

 

[NutmegCT]

Bob - thanks for asking. The plot thickens! I established the north and south boundaries by looking at the deeds for those properties, which were broken off from mine in the early 1980s, and had surveys done for the lines of those parcels.

It's the east boundary that's the big question. How far east does my property extend?

So I asked the town clerk to show me the deed history of the property on the east of mine - and found out there's never been an official "survey" for that property, as it has been in the same family since the 1850s, and followed the traditional "property belonging to A is now owned by B", etc. When the current owner of that property considered buying land from the owner of my property in the 1990s, he learned that there was no official survey for mine, and it would cost him (in the 1990s) around $10K for a legal survey.

So he decided not to buy that piece of land, and thus there was no survey done. Since the 1980s, the state and county have just used previously drawn line maps, but never really established the physical locations of the line, and no points were staked in the land.

The merry circus continues!

And I sure can't afford $10K ($20K today) to have a survey made.

yeesh

 

[Gliderman8]

Bob - thanks for asking. The plot thickens! I established the north and south boundaries by looking at the deeds for those properties, which were broken off from mine in the early 1980s, and had surveys done for the lines of those parcels.

It's the east boundary that's the big question. How far east does my property extend?

So I asked the town clerk to show me the deed history of the property on the east of mine - and found out there's never been an official "survey" for that property, as it has been in the same family since the 1850s, and followed the traditional "property belonging to A is now owned by B", etc. When the current owner of that property considered buying land from the owner of my property in the 1990s, he learned that there was no official survey for mine, and it would cost him (in the 1990s) around $10K for a legal survey.

So he decided not to buy that piece of land, and thus there was no survey done. Since the 1980s, the state and county have just used previously drawn line maps, but never really established the physical locations of the line, and no points were staked in the land.

The merry circus continues!

And I sure can't afford $10K ($20K today) to have a survey made.

yeesh

With all the uncertainties, how can one get title insurance if they buy property with questionable ownership?

 

[NutmegCT]

With all the uncertainties, how can one get title insurance if they buy property with questionable ownership?

I'd guess that having an unquestioned line of legal ownership of that property, going back over 100 years, allows the title insurance some leeway?

 

[Gliderman8]

I'd guess that having an unquestioned line of legal ownership of that property, going back over 100 years, allows the title insurance some leeway?

I can’t imagine there’s “leeway” in title insurance because that would expose them to liability and potential suits. Just my thoughts.

 

[NutmegCT]

And I appreciate your thoughts, believe me. I know nothing about title insurance details, assuming it covers title only. I'm pretty sure it covers only conveyance and title only. Most people around here don't add "boundary disputes" to their title insurance coverage, as the insurance covers *title*, not property details such as property lines.

Interesting topic: indigenous peoples claimed some land titles within the United States, which was taken from them by treaties *with States*, despite the federal government assuming all legal actions with indigenous peoples (legally recognized "tribes"). And thus the land titles were illegally transferred by the States.