TR6 Grrr, again, this time brake lines

[nichola]

Has anyone run into this? The kit has straight pieces the correct length and the threads are correct but they have double flare instead of bubble flare ends. I’m thinking I have to search for adapters or cut the ends off and re-flare them properly. Which means buying a tool. Any suggestions on tools for 3/16 copper? Or other ideas?

 

[Sarastro]

The new ones look like a DIN flare. Also, one of the new ones seems to have a different thread size from the other. Dunno about the TR6, but I don't remember any of the TR4A brakes having different fittings.

As for flaring tools, I bought the high-end one from Eastwood. It's a lovely tool, but costs a couple hundred $$. I got tired of problems with prefab lines, and for the cost of repiping a couple cars, I could get the tool.

 

[nichola]

The new ones look like a DIN flare. Also, one of the new ones seems to have a different thread size from the other. Dunno about the TR6, but I don't remember any of the TR4A brakes having different fittings.

As for flaring tools, I bought the high-end one from Eastwood. It's a lovely tool, but costs a couple hundred $$. I got tired of problems with prefab lines, and for the cost of repiping a couple cars, I could get the tool.

The TR6 has different size from master cylinder to the union that houses the brake failure switch. In the photo below, my new lines are the double SAE flare type, while the original utilize the bubble flare.

 

[Madflyer]

I guess the first question where did you get the kit. Every connection is a chance to leak so adapters might be out. Maybe a hyd. shop would do it for small shop time cheep. Better than $$ tool. Some auto parts stores rent tools. And last send it back find the right stuff.
Question how will you bend it to fit. They sell a spring that goes over the tubing so it won't kink. The big problem is as it is brake parts some shops will not touch it at all unless they do all the work. Not to be rude you are in California to boot. Madflyer

 

[Peter Arakelian]

If I remember correctly, the Automec flare is designed to work for both applications. It should work where the old bubble flare is used. Automec is a UK company, perhaps you can contact them directly and get the assurance you need. the bubble pressed onto the fitting and ended up being like the Automec are. In terms of bending, use a baseball bat as a form, or get a tube bender. Can be done by hand if you work slowly, always in small increments.

 

[nichola]

I have a bender and most of my pipe is already bent and installed (before the body was remounted) except for the four pipes connected to the union holding the brake failure switch. But now I have to unscrew any questionable connections that may have the wrong flare. Totally agree that connections should be minimized, so I'm not crazy about the adapter route. Wish I had paid attention to original versus new flares earlier. My bad.

There's a picture of the kit in the first post, can't remember where I bought it but almost all my stuff is from the normal vendors: Moss, TRF, Goodparts, BPNW, etc. Even has a little flag on it proudly stating Quality Product Made in Britain.

Big picture though... this is just another bump in the road. And I'm getting pretty close to my destination.

 

[nichola]

If I remember correctly, the Automec flare is designed to work for both applications. It should work where the old bubble flare is used. Automec is a UK company, perhaps you can contact them directly and get the assurance you need. the bubble pressed onto the fitting and ended up being like the Automec are. In terms of bending, use a baseball bat as a form, or get a tube bender. Can be done by hand if you work slowly, always in small increments.

Thanks for that vote because I was thinking and hoping the same thing. They almost do look like a bit of a hybrid. I'm going to contact them and see what they say. Will report back.

 

[E Williamson]

I too have been struggling with brake lines and am trying to determine the correct flare(s) for TR3. Apparently its a double flare in one place and a bubble flare in another. I used the Automec lines and while its pretty stuff and easy to bend, the fittings leaked badly in a couple of places. I have bought an ISO bubble flare tool and when will give that a try once I can get some enthusiasm worked up for the job. Will also have to repaint the frame where the leaking hydraulic fluid ate the paint. One step forward, two back - right?

 

[nichola]

Here is the reply from Automec UK...

Thanks for getting in touch. Your Automec pipes are either copper or copper nickel depending on what you ordered. When using these materials it is essential always to use a double flare. The 'bubble' flare was just for use with the old steel. It is a common question you pose but to put your mind at rest we have been supplying brake pipe sets all around the world for over 40 years including for many thousands of Triumphs. Each and every one has had double flares.

 

[nichola]

I too have been struggling with brake lines and am trying to determine the correct flare(s) for TR3. Apparently its a double flare in one place and a bubble flare in another. I used the Automec lines and while its pretty stuff and easy to bend, the fittings leaked badly in a couple of places. I have bought an ISO bubble flare tool and when will give that a try once I can get some enthusiasm worked up for the job. Will also have to repaint the frame where the leaking hydraulic fluid ate the paint. One step forward, two back - right?

Yeah, the paint problem is what I worry about. I think that I'll remove the four way union, attach the Automec pipes, fill with brake fluid, and apply some pressure and see what happens. Check the response from Automec, above.

 

[E Williamson]

Double vs Bubble

 

[nichola]

Double vs Bubble

yup

 

[steveg]

Eastwood's inexpensive flaring tool makes what Moss calls 'Universal' flares which fit both double and bubble flare applications:

 

[brgtr3a]

I did my TR3 with an Automec kit. I had to modify some lines and flared those with a double flare. I was nervous about all the connections being tight, but all was good. My only persistent seeping was, believe it or not, the no pressure line from the reservoir to the clutch master. It weeped at the master cylinder end and did not want to completely stop, but by gently snugging up the connection many times over, it finally stopped. That line was a steel one that I had flared myself.

 

[nichola]

I did my TR3 with an Automec kit. I had to modify some lines and flared those with a double flare. I was nervous about all the connections being tight, but all was good. My only persistent seeping was, believe it or not, the no pressure line from the reservoir to the clutch master. It weeped at the master cylinder end and did not want to completely stop, but by gently snugging up the connection many times over, it finally stopped. That line was a steel one that I had flared myself.

Based on the response from Automec above, my impression is that with steel lines you need a bubble flare. With copper lines the double flare will work even if the original setup utilized the steel bubble flare.

 

[steveg]

I built all new brake pipes for my Healey when I converted to dual-circuit 4-wheel discs. I used the Cunifer piping sold by FedHill Trading and others. This is a copper-nickel alloy, not just plain copper (which has work-hardening issues). These are all double flares except the Jaguar rear Girling calipers which required bubble flares. Cunifer is used OEM by Volvo, Mercedes and others.

Leakage is easily caused by compressing the flare too tightly with the tool. It needs a bit of compression on installation. When you're doing the second part of the flare, just snug the tool with the shape correct, but a little play left.

Cunifer and plain steel (non-SS) can be annealed by heating red over the stove or a torch and letting air-cool. This helps ensure a good seal.

SS lines quickly work-harden and start to leak, so they won't handle much in the way of experimental fitting.

You must use a tubing cutter so the flare will be perpendicular to the pipe. A hacksaw or cutoff wheel cut will leak.

 

[nichola]

I built all new brake pipes for my Healey when I converted to dual-circuit 4-wheel discs. I used the Cunifer piping sold by FedHill Trading and others. This is a copper-nickel alloy, not just plain copper (which has work-hardening issues). These are all double flares except the Jaguar rear Girling calipers which required bubble flares. Cunifer is used OEM by Volvo, Mercedes and others.

Leakage is easily caused by compressing the flare too tightly with the tool. It needs a bit of compression on installation. When you're doing the second part of the flare, just snug the tool with the shape correct, but a little play left.

Cunifer and plain steel (non-SS) can be annealed by heating red over the stove or a torch and letting air-cool. This helps ensure a good seal.

SS lines quickly work-harden and start to leak, so they won't handle much in the way of experimental fitting.

You must use a tubing cutter so the flare will be perpendicular to the pipe. A hacksaw or cutoff wheel cut will leak.

Thanks for all the great tips. My set from Automec UK is also copper-nickel. The double flare ends on theirs do look like they should work with either the DIN (bubble style) or the SAE (double flare style) unions. So, I'm going with theirs, as is. Will protect my paint while checking for leaks.

 

[steveg]

Nichola,
Looked at your first picture - the Automec are those universal flares that will work in double & bubble applications.

 

[nichola]

Nichola,
Looked at your first picture - the Automec are those universal flares that will work in double & bubble applications.

Thanks Steve.