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TR2/3/3A Will Not Start

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sp53 said:
Not to over kill the obvious or anything like that. If the car ran fine before, I would suggest not getting too far away from something you replaced very recently.
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Thanks for the reminder. Not a good idea to get too carried away and create more problems.

Went through the steps in the Haynes manual for testing the LT and HT portions of the ignition. The last time I have done this was such a long time ago that I very likely missed something. Plan on going through these steps again. I also need to test the coil and ignition since I have not yet done so. The steps in the Haynes manual look to be intended for isolating ignition electrical problems so will spend more time with this. Hope to get back at this before the weekend.
 
Hello fellow TR folks. I do have an update. Went through the steps in the Haynes manual again. This info is listed on page 102, Chapter 4/Ignition System. With all the great questions and suggestions provided, I went back through the manual to find out what I did test and what still needs to be tested. Just in case there is interest in this, I have highlighted the steps I have gone through so far. There are 14 total.

2) Check if moisture in distributor or spark plugs. Checked. Not an issue.

3) Check current is reaching the plugs. Disconnect spark plug leads and hold end 3/16 inch away from engine block. Should see blue spark (please look at the Haynes manual for more details). This is my own brief and not complete description for this and other sections. Hopefully you will not have to go through this anytime soon. Maybe this can be referred to as pleasure reading - LOL

4) Spark between end of distributor spark plug cable and engine block. Completed this. Result was no spark.

5) Check spark end of lead between coil and distributor. If blue spark at lead end, then issue is with distributor cap, faulty rotor arm, or contact points are pitted, burnt, or dirty. More info on this in manual. I need to do this test. Skipped it first time for no particular reason.

6). If no spark from end of lead to coil, check lead connections. If OK check out low tension circuit starting with battery (next section).

7) Switch ignition on and turn crankshaft so contact points are open. Use a voltmeter to check current from the battery is reaching the starter solenoid. I did test. Reading showed approximately 25 amp. Will go back and retest again to be sure. Manual suggested if in order, go to the next section.

8) Check that current is reaching terminal A (one with the brown lead) in the control box. Check by connecting the voltmeter to terminal A and ground. If faulty then faulty cable or loose connection between solenoid switch and terminal A. I tested and showed connection to be good.

9) Check with voltmeter between the control box terminal A1 and earth. No reading means fault in control box. If no reading recommends fitting a new control box and starting the car. I tested and the results were positive. Control box appears to be OK.

The remaining items listed go from 10 to 14. These tests focus on the ignition switch, coil, and isolating a bad condenser.

Next steps for me include these items 10 through 14. Starting to narrow down this problem to be either the ignition switch or coil. Also possibly the condenser. I mention the condenser because test 14 is used to determine if faulty.

After going through the Haynes manual, I am optimistic the problem will be found and resolved. I have been frustrated, angry, but never defeated in figuring out what needs to be fixed on my TR's spanning 40years. Do not want this to be the first time - LOL. Learning a whole bunch along the way. I appreciate all the great suggestions. They helped me really think about what I did and what still needs to be done. Wish me luck. Hopefully will have an update by the weekend.
 
Graham H said:
Did you get 12volts at check 8 and 9?

Graham
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I did not write down the exact measurement. Both step 8 and 9 results were very close to the reading expected. Next step is going through items 10 through 14 to test the switch, coil, and condenser. I also need to run the test I missed earlier for the coil (step 5). I will publish the results. By this weekend if not before.
 
Ken, I believe you are correct. Since I did replace the condenser, the most likely issue is with the ignition switch or coil. This TR3 was a a daily driver over a # of years. The speedometer was replaced so I do not know exact mileage. Based on other items I have repaired on this car, it was well used. Also, the coil is new. Replaced about 2 years ago. So can not rule out the switch being the problem. Like I mentioned earlier, I have done all the work on my TR's over a 40 year span. Never had to go this far in debugging the ignition system before. Interesting process for sure. If I was placing odds on what is going on I would say 60% switch and 40% the problem being the coil. Only way to find out of course is to run through the tests. Trying to get this done while also working my other job that pays the bills.

I will define over confidence as it applies to me owning two TR's. It's thinking I can keep both TR's running while also trying to earn a paycheck. What was I thinking?
 
poolboy said:
Looks like you do have a couple nice ones though, Steve.
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Thanks Ken. After going through the Haynes manual again, just read through Step 5 vs. going by memory. You are right. Step 5 is a very important step. Remembered what was being tested. Forgot what it meant if there is spark at the coil wire end. If there is a spark, the issue would be with the distributor cap, rotor arm, or points. The points could be and should be added to the list of possible causes. And this is a great way to find out w/o having to replace points before knowing if a replacement set is needed (I do have a new set if needed). Thanks again for the help! I do have a backup distributor cap with wires in additional to a new rotor arm which I did swap out. Looking forward to figuring this one out. Already learning more than I ever did regarding the ignition system.
 
A jumper wire from battery hot to coil where the ignition wire connects will eliminate everything except the coil and distributer. If it starts you can then eliminate both the coil and distributor from your testing. If it does not it should indicate the problem is coil, distributer or condenser.

I worked on a friends TR4 for several hours trying to get it started then he mentioned a neighbor had worked on it the previous weekend and had to move the distributer. He had got it 180 deg off.

David
 
Steve, what was the result expected at step 8 and 9? it could only be whatever voltage is in your battery eg12 volts. The same goes for the white wire that goes to the coil with the ignition on, if you don't have any power at the coil you can't get a spark.

Graham
 
Update with some good news. Able to get the TR3 started and running. Running very rough and also hard to start so not finished but getting closer. Also completed all 14 steps (more on this later).

After all the testing with positive results, looks to narrow this down to the distributor related items. The original rotor arm metal edge with dirty. After cleaning reinstalled, and was able to get the car started. Ran rough like not all spark plugs/cylinders were firing. Also weak increase in RPM's when pressing down on throttle. Running much different than previously.

Next steps for me is to go through distributor related items (rotor arm, clean or replace points, check park plug wires). Since the rotor arm metal surface was really dirty, any idea on how this would effect the points? Also, what method is recommended for cleaning the points. Plan to use fine grit emory cloth. Will plan to do this, and also check spark plug wires as well as spark at the plugs. Will also check if distributor clamp is loose. Thanks again everyone for the help.

Test results for:

Step 5 - Removed coil wire and turned over engine with wire 3/16 inch from block. Result was strong blue spark.

Step 8, and 9 - Testing the voltage regulator control box connection A and A1. Both measured 12.5 volts

Additional tests for coil wires also measured at 12.5 volts. Tested both leads from wiring harness end (ignition switch) and white coil wire to side of distributor.

Step 14 - Going by recall here. Measuring voltage at the points. The result was .4 volts. Do not recall seeing any reference on what is considered acceptable results for this test. Goes back to thinking that at least cleaning the points is a good idea.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
 
Have a look at the that carbon button in the distributor cap. If it's worn down and only partially connecting it can cause a lot of grief. I once installed an aftermarket dist cap that was poorly made and the carbon button wore down to nothing. The car would start and run for a few blocks then die. Sounds like your getting closer to solving the issue. I always like reading the No Starts on the forum because I've been there many times and I always learn something new.
 
karls59tr said:
Have a look at the that carbon button in the distributor cap. If it's worn down and only partially connecting it can cause a lot of grief. I once installed an aftermarket dist cap that was poorly made and the carbon button wore down to nothing. The car would start and run for a few blocks then die. Sounds like your getting closer to solving the issue. I always like reading the No Starts on the forum because I've been there many times and I always learn something new.
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Karl, Thanks for the advice regarding the distributor cap. Could very well be a problem for me. There is a pit in the carbon button on the one I have. This is a newer distributor cap with not many miles on it.

Also noticed last night when looking to order a new distributor cap via Roadster Factor, it had a NLS status with no price. Ordered the other items from them anyways (new rotor, points, condenser, wires,plugs) and will install when they arrive. Looks like Moss has the distributor cap and I will order a replacement. When I bought the car about four years ago, it required a lot of work in various areas to make it right. I am starting to wonder if the the points and condenser were replaced since purchased. Will go and replace these items.

The feedback from all of you has been very helpful with identifying what to look for based on you all sharing your own experiences.

Thank you everyone.
 
Hello, Try a test light connected across the coil and crank engine, if light flashers, coil is suspect. If light stays on, problem with points. If no light, try hot wire from battery, ignition circuit faulty.
 
robmate said:
Hello, Try a test light connected across the coil and crank engine, if light flashers, coil is suspect. If light stays on, problem with points. If no light, try hot wire from battery, ignition circuit faulty.
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Thanks for the suggestion. Test results pointed things back to the distributor. After determining this, I removed and inspected the points and there was pitting. Replaced the rotor earlier in the process. The TR started up and ran. Ran rough at first due to the plugs being fouled up. After about five minutes of running, plugs cleared and the car ran great.

This is the first time I had to replace pitted points after owning TR's for 40 years. Tried to think about why now and not before. For many years my TR's were daily drivers. During this time I was also good about staying on top of maintenance. Even drove a TR4A across the U.S. and back with no issues except for a bad wire wheel. Did a bunch of work to prepare before the trip. I believe what might of happened with this particular TR is the following. When I purchased 4 years ago I had to do an extensive amount of work on the car in multiple areas except with the ignition. I did still replace the distributor cap, wires, and plugs, but for some reason did not replace the distributor rotor, points and condenser. Not sure how long they were in the car since were installed sometime before I purchased. Once replaced, it all worked as it should. Good reminder I believe that staying on top of maintenance is good. Including replacing points, condenser, rotor on a regular basis.
 
I carry a set of points and condenser in the boot along with the a screwdriver to change them if I needed to. Have other bits as well in the plastic box.

David
 
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