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MGB Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 18GK

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wkilleffer

wkilleffer

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

One thing that could be a problem with Rivergate is that they tend to be kind of racing oriented. They wanted to put a cam in my engine. I didn't want to pay for it, nor did I want to deal with the extra mechanical stresses that can come with that sort of thing.
 

Guinn

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

I don't have time to read all the "maybe's" above, but in skimming through I see that the 3 and 4 cylinders are both consistently low compared to the 1 and 2 cylinders. The only times I have had that condition on my cars I found a slight channel or groove in the head gasket, between the two cylinders. A SLIGHT grooving would account for the difference in pressures between 3 and 4.

If this was my car, I would buy a new gasket, then pull the head. Much cheaper than waiting for a cats-asstrophy to occur.

Of course you would want to inspect the head very carefully while it was off.

Guinn
 

tony barnhill

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

William - Rivergate are good people who definitely know MG's, more about Midgets than B's; but they know our cars (they're the ones who designed the 5-speed conversion for a B) - but I am surprised they'd call for a lighter oil than 20W50!

And my bad (as the kids say) - I read it wrong & thought you said you replaced the head gasket....

There's something going on with #3 - question is do you want to continue driving? Or take the plunge?

What did you learn when starting it first thing in the morning? Any smoke from the tailpipe on initial startup?
 

jlaird

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

Almost every town/area has an engine builder around. Ask.

If all else fails send it to Hap for his love.
 
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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

tony barnhill said:
William - Rivergate are good people who definitely know MG's, more about Midgets than B's; but they know our cars (they're the ones who designed the 5-speed conversion for a B) - but I am surprised they'd call for a lighter oil than 20W50!

And my bad (as the kids say) - I read it wrong & thought you said you replaced the head gasket....

There's something going on with #3 - question is do you want to continue driving? Or take the plunge?

What did you learn when starting it first thing in the morning? Any smoke from the tailpipe on initial startup?

No problem Tony. I was trying to avoid naming names, but that doesn't always seem to matter. I must emphasize that my memory might not be right, or I might have even misunderstood what they said. I don't think I would have pulled 10w40 from out of nowhere, but anything's possible.

When I started it yesterday morning, there was no smoke for the first four or five seconds. Then, there was a gray-ish black smoke that smelled of petrol. I'd pulled the choke too far. I adjusted the choke and the smoke stopped, and the engine ran more evenly.

I don't think it's safe to keep driving, so I'm going to pull the head first chance I get. Should I take it to Rivergate for inspection or try someone else?

I know the basics of removing the head. Are there any special tricks for getting the exhaust manifold out of the way?

Thanks,
-Bill
 

tony barnhill

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Are there any special tricks for getting the exhaust manifold out of the way?[/QUOTE]
I know guys who tie it back with wire...me? I pull it completely out of the engine compartment (but I'm not the best mechanic on the BBS) - that just seems easier especially if the exhaust studs haven't rusted....take the head pipe loose from the muffler & lift the entire assembly out (you might also want to break the headpipe from the manifold to make lifting the manifold/carb assembly easier)...ultimately when you remove the engine, you'll want it gone anyway.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]there was a gray-ish black smoke that smelled of petrol[/QUOTE]
Doc or somebody else might correct me but I think that is a sign of a too-rich carb setup...& its possible to damage a ring with excess, unburned fuel getting to it.

Try this: Pull out the dipstick while the engine is idling, don't rev the engine. If there's any air, gas or oil escaping the dipstick holder hole then there's ring problems somewhere. Oh, when you pull that dipstick, see if you smell gas on it.
 

davester

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

I'm curious about the "seepage" you mentioned. What is seeping?...oil or coolant? If it's oil, are you sure it's not from the valve cover gasket. If it's coolant, are you sure it's not from the heater valve?...it's common for those to develop leaks, and if the leak is small enough, a small amount of coolant can run down and collect along the headgasket area.

Also, I'm still strongly of the mind that you should make yourself a leakdown tester (or have a mechanic do the test) and run that before ripping things apart.
 

AweMan

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Yep I go with Tony on this one, IF you are going to remove the head. Take The exaust manifold off at the header pipe, remove it from the head and place it on your workbench until re-instalation. This will get it out of the way completely and it makes removing the head much much easier. {it should be only three extra bolts although they may have a considerable amount of rust/corrosion on them.} PB blaster or some other penetrating type fluid overnight should help free them up.
 

DrEntropy

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

Tony said:
Doc or somebody else might correct me but I think that is a sign of a too-rich carb setup...& its possible to damage a ring with excess, unburned fuel getting to it.

Can't correct ya there Tony: You're already correct. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

"Washing" the walls with a continual rich mix will lead to premature ring wear.
 
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I haven't really took the time to read this entire thread, so forgive me if i repeat what others have already said here. I was ask to comment here, based on what I had posted on another forum.

Most of you know me, but for you that do not, let me introduce myself, I'm Hap Waldrop, I own and operate Acme Speed Shop in Greenville, SC, my main business is buildng MG A and B series motors and rebuilding SU carbs for both race and street use, I build about 15-20 engines a year.

I put very little faith in a compression test to tell me the overall condition of a engine, I seen them lie to me way too many times, for example a engine that has rings broken into a dozen pieces riding the ring lands of piston producing good compression results. I use a compression tester very little, mostly when I think there is a serious problem with a engine as my first line of testing. I put alot more faith in leak down tester, because they do so much more than a compression test can do. A leak down tester is the tool you want to use to tell you the condition of a motor, while it can't tell you the condition of the bearings and such, it can alteast tell you condition of piston rings and valve seal on a said motor and it can isolate the problem area and even tell you how bad the problem is. At what it cost to rebuild a engine these day a leak down tester is pennies on the dollar, and is a smart investment for any car owner wondering the condition of their engine.
 

tony barnhill

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I emailed Hap & asked him to come up & post his thoughts (like I said, there are much better mechanics than me who frequent this BBS)....I've been trying to get as many indicators of the problem in Bill's engine as possible by asking for different type of compression tests, what's been done to the engine previously, how it performs when first started, etc. & figured it was time to call in the expert!!

I don't have much experience with leak down tests though I do know they provide valuable information - & using a leak down tester properly may just be one more thing that's beyond my abilities. However, others on this thread also mentioned doing a leak-down.....think that's the next step?

I'm not one to just jump in & start disassembling everything "willy nilly" - when I do open an engine, I want to have some indicator of the probable problem....since Bill's engine is so 'new' I think that it's important he doesn't waste time & money rebuilding something that doesn't need rebuilding.

I still don't know if its a bad head gasket, bad valve seals, cracked head, valves not seating, broken or collapsed rings, etc. So, I'm not confident that paying somebody to check a recently rebuilt head isn't a waste of time & money (it might or might not be the problem, I'm just not confident about it).

& Dave had a couple of good questions about the weep/seep around the head:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]I'm curious about the "seepage" you mentioned. What is seeping?...oil or coolant? If it's oil, are you sure it's not from the valve cover gasket. If it's coolant, are you sure it's not from the heater valve?...[/QUOTE]

That point still needs to be clarified.

Plus, if somebody could walk Bill through using a leak down tester on the #3 cylinder where we've determined (by the compression tests) that there's a problem, maybe he'll have an idea where to look (head or block) when he does start disassembly.

Oh, & where does he go to rent a tester?
 

jlaird

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/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thankyousign.gif /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/winner1.gif Hap, every time.
 
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wkilleffer

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

The seepage looked like an oil/coolant emulsion. I have seen some valve cover leakage, but my car seems to do that at the back of the engine. I've seen nothing that would indicate a leaking heater valve.
 

tony barnhill

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

Clean the side of the head real good - where the leak appears to be coming from....crank it & let it idle til it gets to normal operating temp....look closely to see if the seepage is from the gasket or a tiny head crack.
 
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Tony, called me today and kinda filled me in your problem somewhat. A coolant pressure tester, a hand held pump device that attaches to your radiator cap will tell you if you have a blown head gasket or any other kind of water/coolant leak, You could probably go to a shop leave a deposit and borrow one, if you don't have, sometimes parts store even have a rent-a-tool program .

A short description of how to use a leak down test, first off I'll describe a leak down tester, It has fitting and hose simular to a compression tester that screws into the spark plug hole. Then it has a small aluminum block, that allows your air compressor line to come into it, two pressure guages, one reading the incoming pressure with a dial regualtor allowing you control how much air pressure you allow for the test (normally 100 psi), the second gauge will read the pressure being held into the cylinder. So with the cylinder at TDC compression stroke, this can be confirmed by removing the valve cover and looking a the valvetrain, you set the regulator on 100 pounds, then look at the other cylinder and whatever it reads tells you how efficent your engine is, say the gauge for the cylinder read 90, while the incoming air supply gauge is regulated at 100, this is telling you that you 90& efficentcy or 10% leakage. To further determine where the leakage is, you need to make access to the carb throats , exhaust pipe and crankcase ventilation pipe or hose, a air hissing sound from the crankcase ventilation tube/hose would be ring leakage, exhaust pipe would be exhaust valve leakage, carb throats would be intake valve leakage.

Now what beats people up about a leak down test is getting on TDC compression stroke, if you are TDC exhaust stroke, the exhaust valve will be beginning to open and you will get 100% leakage, if you are not exactly TDC compression stroke the air pressure of the tester will revolve the engine slighty and get it off TDC, so at TDC compression only will it give you a reading all other will result in 100% leakage, so if you get a reading other than 100% leakage, then you got a correct reading, period. make sense?

Now to give you an idea of what good/bad results in a leak down test reading, first off 0% leakage is really hard to achieve, I achieved it a handful of times, but not many.
In the race engines, or street engines no matter how much performance enhancments you have done to your engine, if you're not achieving good seal, then you're losing horsepower. In a race engine we look for 5% leakage or less, we may do a leak down test on a race engine and determine for example #3 cylinder's exhaust valve has 10% leakage but all other valves and rings are sealing good and producing good results. We might pull the cylinder head and lap just the one offending valve, because the leak down test has told where our leakage is, there no reason to address anything that is properly doing it's job, just what's not. On a higher milegae street engine, that's running fine, don't be shocked to see for example 20-25% leakage, if shows up to be vlave and the rings are not producing much of a hissing sound, then you might get a good vavle job, and boom, you got 20+% of your given horsepower back. Numbers as high as 10-12% on a street engine would be considered good, anything any better, well then wonderful. This is where a quality valve job comes into play, and alot of the time you won't get this at your corner machine shop, you just get a quickie valve job, for under $100. A really good head prep, complete cleaning of the head, decking it, multi angle valve job, checking stem hiegts, seat pressures, will cost you a good bid more than that, but you get what you pay for, all valve jobs are not created equal, and really a very important part of your end results with your engine. Replace any valve, guides, springs, stem seals, seats all will add to your final cost. Bottom line a good cylinder head prep is one of the very best things you can do to insure you getting the best performance from your motor.


I feel based on what Tony said about your head gasket leakage, then that might be the problem, but anytime you have leaking head gasket on a MGB, you have to make sure you don't have a crack, MGB heads crack if you look at them wrong, think about your time in the car, did you run it hot at anytime?
 

PAUL161

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

Tony, Could Haps description of how to do a leak down test be put somewhere in the forum for all to see when needed? I don't think it could be explained any better. Easy directions for a non professional to follow. PJ
 

jlaird

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Re: Worrisome compression test results on my MGB 1

Someone who knows, please add to the WiWi.
 
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Paul, I rushed thru this last night, so I get to my favortie TV show, Survivor :smile:. I went back this morning and edited my spelling, and added more to the post, but as always I'm not known for my grammar, typing skills, or spelling, so if put into a tech article, maybe someone with better writing skills than me can edit it. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 

tony barnhill

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Hap & I will work on it & turn it into a tech tip..time for Basil & I to talk about a tech section on the BCF!!
 
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