TR4/4A TR4A--still won't start

[KVH]

Maybe some will remember: I bought a new battery because my car would "suddenly" refuse to crank over and start. I'd get a click dead, and that was it. Then, suddenly it would start again.

So, I tried recharging my battery, and then that proved to be a waste. Next, I checked the electrical, and all seemed correct. I have a new solenoid, and it seems to be sending the current to the starter.

I then decided to pull the starter and have a shop check it. They bench tested it, and it spun perfect every time. They said they didn't bother taking it apart because it seemed fine.

So, I just reinstalled the starter and put the battery back in after keeping it on a trickle charge for a week. All cells check very good on a specific gravity test.

When I just tried to start it an hour ago, it cranked for maybe 2 seconds, then click dead. I turned on the lights and the lights went out when it clicked dead, but the lights did stay on during the 2 second crank.

I then went under the hood and pushed the button on the solenoid and got click dead 4 times--THEN GRAY SMOKE BILLOWED UP OUT OF THE STARTER HOUSING. In addition, the battery cables were quite warm. Not hot, but warm.

Okay. I'm stumped. What's going on here? Bad starter misdiagnosed?

 

[Darrell_Walker]

Perhaps something is jamming? Does the engine turn easily by hand? Did the starter gear look OK when you had it out?

Perhaps a long shot, but one time all of the bolts that hold the ring gear on to the flywheel came off of my car. That symptom was a little different, sometimes the starter would just spin the loose ring gear, other times the ring gear would partially stick to the flywheel, and it would start. But it could just as easily become jammed in there.

 

[martx-5]

...

Okay. I'm stumped. What's going on here? Bad starter misdiagnosed?

Good possibility, but first, check to make sure you can turn the starter over by hand as KVH mentioned. If so, the culprit sounds like a bad starter, especially since you let some more smoke out.

Did the place you brought the starter to put the starter under a load when testing, or did they just lay it on the bench and free spin it. A starter that doesn't perform under load can often spin just fine without the load. Since they didn't even take the starter apart, it sounds like they don't want to get involved. I almost can't blame them, parts availability for Lucas starters is just about nil. At work here, we have to salvage the big items (armatures and fields) from cores. Sometimes we can re-solder an armature, but it has to be done by hand and it's tedious.

If it is the starter, and you not concerned about originality, a modern gear reduction replacement would be what I'd recommend. They draw less current, spin the engine over faster, and parts are readily available and will be for a long time. Not only that, you'd lose about eight pounds from the weight of the car.

 

[DanB]

Check your ground from the engine block to the car body.

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Check your ground from the engine block to the car body.

 

[JerryVV]

That ground suggestion is excellent. I had the same issue years ago and solved it by running the battery ground directly to the block and a pig tale to the spot on the body where the heavy gauge wire is shown to attach. Solved my similar issue.

 

[TR3driver]

How long were you holding the key in the start position, during the "click-nothing" episodes? If it totaled less than 30 seconds or so, then I'd say you have a misdiagnosed starter. As noted, they will frequently turn fine with no load but not perform under actual operating conditions. The motor is a 4-pole design, but will free run on just 2 poles.

In my case, one of the brush leads had gotten loose and the edge of the commutator had cut mostly through the lead. The engine would just barely move (not fast enough to start). My battery cable started smoking first, but it could just as easily have been the starter that smoked. (Scared me silly, the smoke continued so long that I thought something was on fire

I could have won a prize for getting the hood open so fast!)

Just a thought, if you can push-start the car; there is an O'Reillys in Tucson that should be able to test the starter and battery together. If the current is too high then it's a starter problem; but if the current is normal and the voltage is dropping too low then it's a battery problem.

Or it should be possible to measure starter current (roughly) by estimating the resistance of the starter cable and measuring the voltage drop across the cable with a sensitive meter. For example, on a TR3 the original cable from the solenoid to the starter is about 2.5 feet and the conductor is roughly 0.3" in diameter, making it roughly 0 AWG. 0 AWG is about 0.1 milliohms per foot, so the entire cable is about .25 milliohms. The book gives starter stall current as 450 amps, so you would expect to measure around 112 millivolts (probing into the wire itself, so the resistance of the terminals and connections doesn't affect the reading).

But before I'd mess with that, I'd just open up the starter and have a look. Internal problems are usually pretty obvious, like the armature dragging on one of the pole pieces or worn out brushes.

 

[DougF]

While you're checking the ground, check the connections at both sides of your solenoid. I've had issues there too.

 

[KVH]

OK I pulled the starter out again. The shaft does not turn freely. It binds every 3/4 turn. Is it supposed to spin freely? Is it the starter after all?

My cables and ground all seem good. Including the ground from the engine to the frame. This time, while trying again, even my solenoid got hot and smoked a bit. It was spinning fine for a few tries at the starter, but then it went click dead again. That's when a noticed the cable to the starter was warm and the solenoid smoking.

But, clearly, that starter binds up. I could take it apart, but what would I look for?

Back in 1970, the finest of times any of us (and this nation) might ever again experience, there was a little shop on Speedway called "Bemis Electric." I remember bringing my TR4 starter to that guy and he popped the cover off and said my front bushing was shot. Then he made one right then and there, brass I believe, and tapped it home. Could it be that same bushing?

Point is: It's got to be that starter, correct?

 

[TR3driver]

Well, certainly the starter should not be binding. Almost sounds like the armature shaft is bent, to be binding only at one spot. Look for any obvious bend in the shaft, and marks from the armature rubbing on the pole pieces.

 

[Brinkerhoff]

You more than likely have poor grounding as was mentioned and you have too much resistance in the circuit causing heat to build up. You don't have those universal type battery terminals that hold the bared wire with a small strap and two 1/4" bolts do you? Those need to be disassembled and cleaned , then tightened properly. Try running the ground strap right from the battery to one of the starter bolts after you get the starter rebuilt. If you don't have enough juice going to the starter it can jam in the flywheel and get hot and smoke and such making you think its bad.

 

[KVH]

Just a small little follow up here. Nothing major. It's just that RANDALL IS RIGHT AGAIN!
Nothing against the first shop, since they only bench tested it, but the second shop found the coils burnt plus a bad bushing on the rear plate, plus the shaft binding badly. They can fix it all right there, so I'll let them do that and go with original equipment for now. All my scientific electronic testing was fun to learn, but in the end it was the big stuff after all. Thanks everyone.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Was this the shop whose name rhymes with tuna? I gave up on them when they tried to pull a fast one on me a few years ago -- tried to sell me an Asian replacement generator claiming it was my original that they had rebuilt. After refusing that and persisting with management they finally found my original which had never been touched.

 

[KVH]

Yes, they too quickly assumed they knew the situation. Sort of a shame. Maybe I should've just dropped it off. Maybe a freak occurrence making it appear flawless. Oh we'll. I'm still thinking about a lift.

 

[TR3driver]

Probably too late to help now; but one of the little invisible mods to my car is that I put a Heli-coil into the upper starter bolt hole so I didn't have to fight with that nut. Did it with the engine in place and everything (except the starter of course). No drilling, just ran the special tap into the hole (it cut some threads into the engine block, but they won't hurt anything) and then screwed the insert in far enough that it was only in the gearbox flange. Worked great, especially when I was still fighting with the original starter on my 3A. Still had to take the rear air filter off to get my arm down there, but overall the process got a lot easier without having to get a wrench on that dang nut.

 

[Crankshaft]

Great idea Randall. I hope I can remember to make that change the next time the starter is removed.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Excellent solution. I had heard of flipping the bolt around (can't recall if I did that last time) but the Helicoil is downright elegant.

At least on the TR4 firewall they gave us a bit more room to get at that nut.