Spitfire Spit 1500 Clutch Issues

[pipercollins]

Hello all,

After the 4th round of thinking I found my problem and fixing it, only to learn I still have a problem, I think I need to just ask for help. So...

Symptom: Clutch does not want to fully engage. Hard going into 1st and Reverse.

History: I've driven this car about 10k miles with no clutch trouble at all. This spring I heard a noise under the car while driving through town one day and stopped to see if I could see what might have fallen off. Couldn't identify anything missing. Ultimately decided I'd just driven over something already in the street. Car still seemed OK. But driving home with "heightened awareness" I decided that the clutch pedal seemed to feel a little off. Everything still worked OK. Just a "feeling".

Round 1: When I finally decided to thoroughly go over things, I found that the clevis pin linking the pedal arm to the master cylinder push rod was nearly worn through. Like amazing it was still holding at all. So I replaced the pin. No big deal. But it didn't change the feel of things other than I THINK it actually seemed a little bit worse. (???)

Round 2: Thought maybe I should check the clutch fluid. Duh. It was low. About half way up the side of the reservoir. Got some new fluid and topped it up. No immediate change, so I decided I should probably bleed it. No problem. (Figured out it's a one-man job IF you take the tunnel cover off and go at it from the top...anybody got a better method?) New fluid. Freshly bled. Now there was audible grinding trying to shift to Reverse. No grinding in 1st, but it went harder than before. WTF?

Round 3: Looking for throw adjustment at the master cylinder push rod (which there is none, but should be) I saw that the hole for the clevis pin at the top of the pedal arm was extremely worn (to match the pin itself from Round 1, of course). I had a long slot instead of a neat round hole. Surely that's the problem. Thought about welding it up, but found a forum member with a spare clutch pedal on offer so I bought that and swapped them out. Now Reverse grinds even more and it will not shift into 1st. Can shift OK into 2nd and thereby drive the car back up the driveway and into the garage again. More WTF?

Round 4: On very close examination, determined that the length from the pedal pivot pin to the hole for the clevis pin was actually a little shorter on the "new" pedal than on the old one. So maybe the slight difference (~ 1/4") means the pedal isn't throwing the pushrod on the master far enough. OK That makes sense. I enlisted my old farmer dad to weld some new steel stock onto the original pedal and drill a fresh clean hole for the clevis pin where it was originally intended. Reinstalled the old clutch pedal with new hole. No change. Unless it's maybe just a little bit worse yet.

Best guess now is that either master or slave cylinders have been going gradually (but increasingly quickly) bad for a while. Every other fix has not been the key issue. But having demonstrated that I really don't know as much as I think I do, I wanted to ask advice from the group before I shell out for new clutch cylinders.

Your thoughts? Thanks.
Bill

 

[Gliderman8]

Admittedly, I don't know about the Spitfire clutch.... but have you ruled out the transmission itself? Have you checked the fluid in the trans?
I know others more knowledgeable will be here soon to help... just my thoughts. Good luck.

 

[pipercollins]

Yeah, tranny topped up before all this. Fairly new build with no troubles prior to this.

 

[Gliderman8]

Broken fork pins on the TR6 trans. are common... you may want to check it on the Spit.

edit: Just checked the diagrams and see that the Spit trans does not have the same fork pin as the 6.... help will be arriving soon!

 

[Trevor Triumph]

Could it be the master and slave cylinders need to be have washers replaced? I'm told that is where a leak at the slave of master will show up- reverse and first.

T.T.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Symptom: Clutch does not want to fully engage. Hard going into 1st and Reverse.

History: I've driven this car about 10k miles with no clutch trouble at all. This spring I heard a noise under the car while driving through town one day and stopped to see if I could see what might have fallen off. Couldn't identify anything missing. Ultimately decided I'd just driven over something already in the street....

That part still concerns me a bit, but chances are it was, as you surmised: unrelated!

Not uncommon on Spitfires is for the pivot pin of the throwout arm to partially or completely fall out. I wonder if this might be a problem? Often as not, though, such an occurrence would cause much worse problems than you're having.

Then again, it might well be hydraulic, in which case rebuild kits for master and slave cylinders are relatively cheap and easy enough to install!

 

[HerronScott]

I agree with Andy on checking the pivot pin. I'm not sure about the hydraulics since if it bled OK and isn't leaking then it should be working, but as Andy indicated the rebuild kits are cheap enough.

On the worst case side given the noise you heard and the symptoms, I wonder if you might have a pressure plate issue which is causing the clutch to not fully disengage.

Scott

 

[tdskip]

I have found that once the masters stary to go it can speed up in a hurry...

 

[pipercollins]

Since I topped up the clutch fluid (and after bleeding) I have not lost any fluid. And it had frankly been a long time since I'd checked it before I started on this issue. So I guess that argues against a hydraulic problem. But I'm not ruling anything out yet.

Someone on the Triumph Experience forum suggested the pivot pin. I haven't been able to look at the car since I posted and I'm not real familiar with the clutch and gearbox guts (but I'm learning fast). I think I finally found a diagram that shows how the pin goes through the side of the bell housing to hold the end of the clutch lever inside the housing. So I'll definitely look for that next chance I get.

(Amazing how every single diagram and photo in all the manuals shows the left side of the bell housing and nothing shows you the right side...)

 

[71MKIV]

As a long time Spitfire owner, I would say the pivot pin first, then look for a pressure plate that's not letting go. Those springs in the middle of the pressure plate have been known to fall out and get in the way.

Once you've done it once, taking the bonnet off and pulling the engine and trans is only an hour long job. If the pivot pin is in place, and you can see it from underneath, the trans is coming out.

 

[eejay56]

Not uncommon on Spitfires is for the pivot pin of the throwout arm to partially or completely fall out.

This happened to me and the pedal would only go about 3/4 of the way down and not fully engage. You'll have to pull the tranny (or engine, I think the tranny is easier) to get to it. I drilled mine and put keeper pins top and bottom. It can slip up as well as down (don't ask me how I know)

 

[Rhodyspit75]

Here is where the pin is located.

 

[pipercollins]

Thanks everyone, especially for the pic Rhody. I'll let you know...

 

[Mr_SfireB6]

I agree that the pin falling out is probably the problem. If so, don't just replace the pin as it will fall out again. Do replace the pin, the upper and lower pin bushings and the the pin retainer inside the throwout arm. I've been driving Spitfires since '76 and over 500,000 miles. I've learned to look for THE PROBLEM that caused the problem and repair it correctly the first time. This pin, bushings and retainer are not expensive so there's no reason to not replace them all.

 

[71MKIV]

and while you have things apart......

 

[pipercollins]

You mean like this?

Looks to be something like a 1/4" or 3/8" hole. Sure enough, nothing in it.

I tried to poke a screwdriver up through. Can't get more than an inch or so into it and couldn't get anything to line up. Tried with my son working the clutch pedal back and forth too.

I won't object to dropping the transmission and fixing things right...eventually. The seal has leaked pretty bad for as long as I've had the car. Got a new tunnel cover waiting to go on too. But I'd be interested to know if anyone has any tricks for a quicker fix, if only temporary. We're just about to move across town and if I do have to drop the tranny, the car is done for the season. I'd like to get just a few drives in before I have to turn to other things.

 

[71MKIV]

You're never gonna get it by pushing on the clutch pedal. the fork is already behind the hole were it needs to be and pushing on the pedal is just making it worse.

I dunno if you can get in there with a hook of some sort where the slave cylinder is attached, and fish around and see if you can snag the end of the fork, and try to pull the fork back towards the rear of the car while someone watches from the top to see if it lines up again. You will have to pull against the hydraulic pressure of the clutch system, and pivot the fork around the throwout bearing.

If I could figger out how to draw a picture it would be easier to visualize.

let us know how it goes.

 

[Rhodyspit75]

First thing I would try is shining a small bright flashlight up thru the hole. If you can see any indication of the hole then start with an awl and try to move the hole into position. If the hole won't move or stay in position then remove the slave cylinder and try again. You may have to move up to a phillips screw driver.
The fact that you can't push a pin up more than an inch means that the throwout arm is still close to where it has to be.
Then grind a taper on whatever you chose to use as a pin. You should be able to push that in. I would just put in a bolt if you plan to pull it apart this winter then you can drive it a while. Don't use a hardened bolt it may wear out the hole in the arm.

 

[Bob Claffie]

Had one of those pins fall out during practice a Lime Rock park way back when. Time was an issue so we used a bolt for a temporary fix. It was still in place when I sold the car many years later never a problem again. If you can't get it to line up crack the bleeder on the slave. Bob

 

[Mr_SfireB6]

You are getting good advice. I too once used a 5/16 bolt 4 inches long for a temporary fix so I could drive the car until cold weather. I think I drove the car more or less 3000 miles before removing the transmission and replacing all the pivot pin items. I did put a light coat of grease on the bolt for lubrication and ease of installation.

Keith Myers
Heflin, AL.
'72&'79 Spitfires,'75 TR-6,'70&'71 MGBs