Restoration Up-date & Clutch Question

[Tabcon]

Restoration Update & Clutch Question

It now seems as though the end of this month will mark a significant point in my restomod for the TR4. Tony @ Ratco said my frame will be delivered to me by this date, my cylinder head, now being tweaked by Jerry Barker will be ready and my engine block, which needed a little deck aligining, will also be ready. Most all of the components will be in place and ready to mount to the frame, except suspension and wheels. Nothing on the body yet, but at last I have found a competent local painter.

My gearbox has been gone through and cleaned. It was rebuilt by Quantum Mechanics about 3,500 miles ago, but do to sitting up, it needed new seals and a few other adjustments.

[img:center]https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=3506[/img]

As you can se, I'm all ready to use the standard type release bearing set up, but I was thinking of using the Tilton hydraulic bolt on release instead. My question is: Have any of you actually used this conversion and is it worthwhile?

 

[TR3driver]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Tab, I have no experience with the Tilton, but I don't see how it could be "worthwhile". With one minor modification, the original TR2-4 setup will be trouble-free and easily outlast the clutch. And the only required maintenance is an occasional shot of grease to the pivot points, drop of oil on the clevis pin and a very occasional adjustment.

This is in stark contrast to the 4A-6 clutch, which uses several different components and apparently gives people fits.

The minor modification is to drill the shaft and fork, to fit a 1/4" bolt that reinforces the taper pin. There is a write-up and photo (as well as some alternate solutions) at https://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/clutch/ClutchShaft/ClutchShaft.htm

 

[martx-5]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

... Tony @ Ratco said my frame will be delivered to me by this date...

I gather that you have spoken to Tony since we last PM'd each other. Is everything on course??

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Thanks Randall.

The article you linked is great, but it all seems like such a PITA...lol. My gearbox is not original to the car, but is a later TR6/250 type or similar set up I beleive. The guy I bought the car from bought the rebuilt OD & transmission from Quantum Mechanics.

So I guess the Tilton setup may be in order then. Summit sells them for around $259, which seems like a low price to pay to avoid any fits down the road.

 

[tomshobby]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

As you can se, I'm all ready to use the standard type release bearig set up, but I was thinking of using the Tilton hydraulic bolt on release instead. My question is: Have any of you actually used this conversion and is it worthwhile?

You might be interested in the release setup that Richard Good has. A much improved version of the original.

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Art, yes, all is fine.

Tony apologized and explained the situation. The frame he thought was mine, was actually for a different customer. Mine should arrive by the end of this month.

Thanks again and if you see Tony, tell him I said to get his ass in gear...lol!

Tab

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Thanks Tom, I had looked at that set up a while back. It does look like it would be more reliable, but it still has a bunch of moving parts to it.

The cool thing about the hydraulic set up is that it has virtually no moving parts to bind or break, and you don't need to ever oil anything. You can toss all the mechanical parts out and use the shaft holes in the bell housing to pass your hydraulic lines through.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Don't forget that the TOB needs to match the clutch; and the TR4 clutch takes a different one than the TR4A-6 does (regardless of which gearbox you use).

BTW, I had a TR6 gearbox and TR4A clutch in my now-wrecked TR3A. So drop-dead reliable that I just moved them to the TR3 without replacing anything; and I still don't expect to have to touch anything for another 30,000 miles. At that point, I might have to reline the friction plate, but I'll bet the TOB & mechanism will still be fine.

 

[martx-5]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

The biggest problem with having the clutch slave hydraulics inside that trans is that if there is a problem with the slave, you have to pull the trans to repair it. I have Herman's Toyota trans conversion in my TR3, and if there is one thing I could change about it would be to have an external slave cylinder.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

I have Herman's Toyota trans conversion in my TR3, and if there is one thing I could change about it would be to have an external slave cylinder.

Doesn't Herman still support using the original Toyota slave? His kit used to be available either way, and the hydraulic TOB added substantially to the cost.

 

[angelfj1]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

The biggest problem with having the clutch slave hydraulics inside that trans is that if there is a problem with the slave, you have to pull the trans to repair it. I have Herman's Toyota trans conversion in my TR3, and if there is one thing I could change about it would be to have an external slave cylinder.

Would it be possible to cut away a quadrant of the bell housing for access and have a removable cover.

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Yea, I was thinking about everything being located on the inside of the bell housing, but if your TOB fork breaks, what's the dif, you have to rip it all out just the same.

Sometimes I get so darn confused with my car I could scream, and sometimes I do...lol. Really nothing to the car is original. The engine is from a '66 TR4A, the head from an ‘A’ also, but not original to the engine, the transmission number belongs to neither a 4 or a 6 and is from who knows what, all the panels were new aftermarket stuff (and none fit worth a darn), the frame was obviously from Switzerland being made of cheese, yada, yada, yada...

At this point, I'm really not sure what type of clutch I should get. Maybe I should just drop an automatic into it :-O

I am quite literally building an almost "new” and hopefully improved version of a TR4. I'm even replacing all the panels with aluminum ones. This process is so far from what I set out to do that it's laughable. My purchase of a "pin perfect" frame off restored car that all I was supposed to do with was enjoy and occasionally change the oil has now morphed into a ghastly reanimation akin to Frankenstein.

Don't get me wrong, I love doing this, and chances are even if the car were to have been perfect, I would have taken it apart anyway. I was one of those kids that took everything apart. I remember once removing the engine from my father’s brand new Toro lawnmower and attaching it to my bike. The darn thing ran fine, but unfortunately it only went backwards.

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Oh yea, now I remember, sort of. I had to do a search of some of my older posts here, but as it turns out, the serial number on my transmission means that the gearbox is from an Austrailian TR5 PI car. Too funny.

 

[trfourtune]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Tab,
I assume you are using an uprated 4a-6 clutch for your (race) car. I say go for it. The thing you need to be aware of is that i think you need to make or buy an adapter to mount the axial bearing to which then bolts to the transmission.

I am definitely going this way for my car. I will be using a SPEC stage 2 clutch (they highly recommended the tilton axial design) and pressure plate with a fidanza flywheel (i am putting in 8-arp bolts to the crankshaft). I think the tilton part number is 61-401 but i could be wrong. If you find out otherwise, please let me know.

I believe that the clutch feel will be better since it is direct acting. I hate the triumph design. fewer parts to go wrong with the tilton. No parts to bind or cause friction when engaged. Since you will be racing your car, you will probably pull the engine after each season anyways- so you will rebuild the hydraulics anyways.

IMHO
Rob

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Thanks Rob.

I haven't contacted Tilton yet, but I was wondering if they provided such an adapter in a kit form with the unit. If not, it seems easy enough to figure out and fabricate. You are correct on the part number.

I've heard that you can shift much more quickly with this set up as opposed to the factory configuration. I don't want a "dogbox" type set up because I intend to keep the car street-able.

I've already purchased the Fidenza flywheel and have attached a slightly lightened factory ring gear to it. All I really did to the ring gear was to have it ground down slightly. I didn't want to take too much meat out of it since it's not that heavy anyway.

I was curious about adding some additional bolt holes to the crank. I didn't have this done when it was hardened and ground, but it seems easy enough to do now and I think that is a great idea. I'm also using all ARP fasteners. As a matter of fact, I think I may have gone a little overboard with them having bought them for almost every mechanical and suspension connection on the car. I realize it's overkill, but the main thing I like about them is that they are stainless. I absolutely hate messing with rusty nuts and bolts. I also plan on using them for all the body and frame connections as well.

The SPEC clutches look great and I may go with one of these as opposed to a Tilton. I was looking at the SPEC 3+. With the added torque and horsepower it will most likely be the best fit for me. Jerry Barker, who I believe is a member here, is tweaking my head for me right now and is going to set the CR to about 11.5 to 12:1. Jerry came highly recommended to me by Kas Kastner and Mordy Dunst. I also believe Jerry was an SCCA F-production national champ at some time or another and I'm told still campaigns a very quick Triumph in California. Combined with the Weber's, the larger pistons as well as the cam and headers, I hope to be making at least 175 horses. Of course I'll have to use a higher octane fuel, but there is a local airstrip I get it from so it's not that big of a deal.

I just wish everyone would hurry up with my stuff! LOL

 

[trfourtune]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Tab,
check with SPEC on the clutch torque rating. you may find that a stage 2+ is more than enough. We are only talking about 200 ft-lbs or less torque. Really heavy clutch springs mean that you load the crankshaft thrust bearings a lot more when you press in the clutch. I don't know if this goes up with the stage ratings of the clutches.
Stainless bolts with stainless nuts gernerally gall and are hard to take apart sometimes and are not re-usable. I don't like them personally. They are not as strong either. I plan to use CAT bolts (gr.8 +)for everything other than main caps, fly wheel, and head.
Be careful with avgas, it has unique properties-different from race gas.
please send me a PM, I would like to know what the headwork is costing you. I am working on my own head presently.
thanks
R

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

You're right about that. I called SPEC and had a nice conversation with one of their tech guys who just happens to road race as well. I told him about the build and he recommended that I go no larger than the SPEC '3'.

I've already decided to go with the Tilton hydraulic TOB and began setting things up for it today. I pulled the specs for it off of their site, and besides cutting off the collar that protrudes from the front seal cover, it looks as if all I have to do now is drill and tap 4 bolt holes into the back of the bell housing to bolt the unit to. I think I'll wait until it actually arrives to do that though.

As Richard Nixon once said, "let me reiterate"..lol. I'm not using stainless fasteners exclusively on the car, they're really just to dress up the static type connections such as the timing cover, water pump bolts, etc. Any stressed type connections such as rods, mains, flywheel, head bolts, etc. are getting the heavy duty milspec type ARP stuff.

I have never actually used the AV gas, at least not in a very long time. We used to use it all the time in the 70's and 80's though. Thanks for the heads up though and I'll look into getting a small drum of racing fuel. I just didn't want to keep that stuff in my garage.

 

[mallard]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

I'm no expert on this at all, but I don't think I would use stainless on the suspension. From what I've heard they may break under load. I think that information came from Mark at Macys Garage. He would not sell a hardware kit out of S.S. for the suspension. Only for the body and light duty stuff under the hood.

 

[Tabcon]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Stainless steel, like most other metals, is available in different grades with different tensile strengths, elasticity, compression strengths, etc.
I think a 'common' grade of stainless is most likely the cause of the huge amount of misinformation floating around about it such as seizing, galling, breaking, etc. It's not so much the basic type of material being used as a fastener, but how it's compounded and manufactured.

Your typical SAE carbon steel alloy Grade 8 & 8.1 bolt has a tensile strength of about 150,000 PSI, whereas an ARP stainless "300" type bolt has a tensile strength of at least 170,000 PSI. It's elasticity and shear characteristics are also greater than that of a grade 8 bolt.

Check out this chart on ARP's site.



https://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechMetals.html

 

[trfourtune]

Re: Restoration Update & Clutch Question

Tab,
make sure that the TOB is PERFECTLY centered and square. I think you are looking for a tolerance of +- 0.0005 (total of 0.001") on each. Otherwise you will have problems. IMHO
This is not something that can be crudely done.

CAT bolts are a minimum of 150 000 psi and the high strength ones are minimum 170 000 psi. (there are less high strength ones to choose from). You won't find any that are under this strength. I think that there are many "grade 8" bolts that are an average of the rating (you never know with some stuff that is made "off shore").

APR is a safe way to go if you can afford them.

stainless bolts threaded into cast iron or gr.8 steel nuts will not give the galling issues that stainless on stailess can give.

My thought is that anything that comes with a kit-bolts and nuts (from the usual and special suppliers-not arp) is usually junk. Even some of the "performance" parts sold that comes with fasteners is trash-IE suspension kits.

Check fatigue resistance vs ultimate strength also when considering fasteners. Ultimate strength is not the whole picture.

Rob