Harmful Triumph Books!!!!

[Guest]

The response about a book[How to Restore Triumphs by Roger Williams]causing more harm than he realizes to concours TRs has made me rethink just exactly what a concours car really is.I had no clue.Having attended VTR and TRA shows,I have observed the dwindling amounts of what has been defined as a concours car["Concours is not just spit and polish.It is as it looked at the end of factory assembly."]and this threat should be of real concern!I now realize that my car is not up to the exacting level of concours practiced by these organizations.Foolishly during restoration ,I overlooked such important things as horrible paint work,ill fitting body panel alignment and overall poor workmanship.Modifications ,such as a saftey glass wind screen,cam bearings,carb throttle shaft bushings,redesigned rear hub spacers,an 22 others,were all just a waste of time,but since I didnt have the proper approved book to guide me ,my errors are my own fault. It was silly of me to even assume that the pictures in the orginal owners manual could actually been correct.The only saving grace I have is to be allowed to attend other concours car shows of inferior quality.To be relegated to attend such shows as The Greenwich Concours d'Eleagnce,The British Invasion,Lars Anderson Museum of Tramsportation British Car Day and Hemmings Concours d'Elegance is fitting medicine for my inferior workmanship.This threat to true concours TRs must be nipped in the bud--NOW! The dwindling amount of concours Triumphs at events could never be attributed to club politics,unqualified judges or just plain rudeness.Harmful books are the threat and the enemy has been identified.BUT.....The realization of my errors has prompted new questions. Since the Triumph TR emblem represents an open book and the so called motto is "Knowledge is Power",could any book actually be a threat?I have about 15 TR books.Some are produced by the factory and some are aftermarket.I have used them all in 37 years of TR ownership,even though they might not have the blessing of the powers to be.The last guy I knew to deem a book as harmful was from a very nasty orginization {I do not want to be politically incorrect}.I would be interested to hear views and opinions of other harmful threats to concours TRs.I think clarification is in order with the fate of our precious TRs hanging in the balance.

 

[Andrew Mace]

John, you raise some interesting points! :wink:

However, I would point out that a safety glass windshield would likely have been "correct" US specification, or at least in certain states. Oh, and I certainly hope you have circa 1954 GE or other brand sealed beam headlamps, as they also would have been required for the US market! (NOT Lucas sealed beams, mind you; they didn't exist until about 1964!)

But to be a bit more serious, I agree that many books can, in fact, be harmful to a correct restoration, since so many of them focus primarily if not solely on home market cars and often ignore those changes that were required for certain markets. Worse, there do seem to be a pretty fair number of judges who also are quite unaware of those changes.

So in that sense, a "proper" concours restoration indeed should be "as it left the factory"; on the other hand, maybe the phrase might read "as it was supposed to have left the factory" (in which case, panels might have been aligned better, the color coat might have reached all the way down to the bottom of the sills, etc.)?

 

[PeterK]

If you want a concours trailer queen (that rarely gets driven) go for it. I have a Toyota 5-speed and more than '22' other mods so I can enjoy my car the way I want to. It will be here when I'm gone and I'll leave it up to the next owner to put it back "right" since I've saved all the OEM parts. I really never understood what good a concours specimen is good for - certainly not driving, although we DO need a couple specimens to enjoy (as museum specimens.)

I am currently 'restoring' a TR4A (as well as our TR3A) which most certainly will deviate from the judging standards. I guess it's not really a restoration in purists terms but since I've take it completely down to nuts and bolts, rebuilt or replaced every part and re-assembled it, to me it is a restoration. But most of our cars are not rare one-offs anyway. And they made LOTS of them.

As far as Williams books, I thoroughly enjoy his books and helpful tips on keeping them running, modifying for todays world, and (dependible) on the road. From what I know, there's also plenty of non-concours cars happily enjoying the countryside in Europe and G.B. too. But Williams books causing harm to concours - come on, u serious?

I know there's probably people out there with books they won't open in fear of folding a page and toys in boxes because they're afraid to damage them. I'm just not one of them.

No flames. This is how I see our hobby.

 

[19_again]

In anticipation of "renewing" body work and a complete paint job over this winter on the MGB, my brother upon learning of my attendance at an British car show here in NH this spring, told me to get plenty of pictures and to try and determine a few "standards" such as door to body panel gap, trunk lid to fender gap etc. Well being as smart as I am, I asked over at the Mg forum what these gaps ought to be. The response was a resounding ROFLMA from pretty much everybody whose opinion I respect, even had a few of those little munchkins who actually WERE rolling on the floor laughing......
So the point is well taken, there should perhaps be books of "standards" based on day of final assembly, that would show huge gaps on Monday ship dates, and crooked ones on cars shipped after the Friday "long" lunch.

 

[Don Elliott]

When I did the total body-off restoration of my 1958 TR3A from 1987 to 1990, there were only a few books that I had and a few parts catalogs including the S-T parts manual with all the part numbers. I also read a few books about concours preparation. So I took my time and did it as original as I could. The car had been sitting in my garage from 1972 where I put it because it was a basket case. I had driven it from new and it had 80,250 miles on the clock. But I knew how it had been when I bought it in 1958.

Since then I have driven it a bit more than 100,000 miles and it is my "concours runner". At VTR in 2007, I was awarded 2nd in class with 386 points out of 400. I have consistently taken 2nd place in many TRA and VTR judged events. I never got a first. But the car is my trophy and every time I drive it, I'm 20 years old again. Life is short and it's wonderful.

Enjoy your car. What will it give you if you win "Best of Show" in a concours event. Drive it and that'll be your prize !

BTW if you want a TR to look just as it was when it left the factory, it would have to have a 2" by 8" wood plank in place of the front bumper and the chromed one would have to be wrapped in circa 1958 oiled paper and lying in its wrapping in the passenger's footwell. It can get a bit crazy.

 

[GBRandy]

I keep my car original. It has the proper drive train, body panels, interior and such. It took 3rd at nationals a few years back.

However, it has been adjusted to my liking. Front badge instead of decal. Footwell vents for cooling. Power antenna. New radio. New steering wheel. wider tires. Polished wheels. Unless you kow what to look for, it's hard to tell it from stock.

Call it what you want, but adding fender flares, body style kits, wild paint schemes and swapping out gearboxes and engines for other manufacturers is hot rodding the car....not preserving the tradition.

The local Ford Model A club has little to do with a Model A coup that has been chopped and fitted with a Hemi

In the end, a book defining the specs of car as it was produced would be an excellent resource. I for one will try hard to get things back to stock when I get my TR3.

 

[GBRandy]

When I did the total body-off restoration of my 1958 TR3A from 1987 to 1990, there were only a few books that I had and a few parts catalogs including the S-T parts manual with all the part numbers. I also read a few books about concours preparation. So I took my time and did it as original as I could. The car had been sitting in my garage from 1972 where I put it because it was a basket case. I had driven it from new and it had 80,250 miles on the clock. But I knew how it had been when I bought it in 1958.

Since then I have driven it a bit more than 100,000 miles and it is my "concours runner". At VTR in 2007, I was awarded 2nd in class with 386 points out of 400. I have consistently taken 2nd place in many TRA and VTR judged events. I never got a first. But the car is my trophy and every time I drive it, I'm 20 years old again. Life is short and it's wonderful.

Enjoy your car. What will it give you if you win "Best of Show" in a concours event. Drive it and that'll be your prize !

BTW if you want a TR to look just as it was when it left the factory, it would have to have a 2" by 8" wood plank in place of the front bumper and the chromed one would have to be wrapped in circa 1958 oiled paper and lying in its wrapping in the passenger's footwell. It can get a bit crazy.

How did they move the cars around? Forklift?

 

[TR3driver]

Interesting photo, Don, thanks! Looks like they were also shipped without headlight bulbs, which is a new one on me.

If memory serves, the cars were actually driven on and off under their own power. A different time, for sure.

 

[PeterK]

And a spare key in the license plate lamp.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Interesting photo, Don, thanks! Looks like they were also shipped without headlight bulbs, which is a new one on me.

Randall, see my previous post above. This photo shows cars almost certainly destined for the US, where one of the few Federal standards at the time specified sealed-beam headlamps (since 1940). Lucas didn't have such a beast until around 1963-4, and it wouldn't have made much sense to constantly ship headlamps from the US to Coventry only to install them and watch them go back across the ocean! I actually remember seeing Volvos come into US dealerships in the late 1960s with blanks instead of headlights; presumably they had a similar problem (or were trying to get around some other import tariff).

If memory serves, the cars were actually driven on and off under their own power. A different time, for sure.

More than likely they were, since they also were driven to the docks at times (great photo in one of the history books).

 

[Guest]

Is there anyone out in cyberspace who knows me or my car that actually gets what Im talking about here.Maybe the word sarcasm might help?If not I guess Im lost in the wilderness.Could reference to Book Review thread from last night help or do I see things at a higher level?Precious little TRs lives depend on it.

 

[TR3driver]

and it wouldn't have made much sense to constantly ship headlamps from the US to Coventry only to install them and watch them go back across the ocean!

You're quite right of course Andy, I just hadn't thought of it that way.

But I can be trained, sometimes

 

[Andrew Mace]

Sorry, John, I thought I got it, and I thought Don did. But then I think anyone who drives their car regularly and for long distances and still gets Concours trophies gets it, although it can be "gotten" in any number of ways.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...If memory serves, the cars were actually driven on and off under their own power. A different time, for sure.

I recall John Macartney describing how the last TR3A in that long line (photo with the babe who is likely in her 80's now) would be used to push the rest of the line onto the ship.

And some guy wondered why his clutch was worn out after only 10K miles.

 

[DougF]

Interesting about the headlights. I was always going to swap out those GE bulbs for something else and would have pitched them. My car had only 22,700 miles when I purchased it. I'm glad I never got around to the change.

 

[TR3driver]

Hehe ... can you imagine the carnage that would ensue, if the judges started knocking points off US-spec TRs because they have 'tripod' lamps ?

OTOH this is one of the reasons I don't keep my cars "original", those tungsten bulbs were pretty bad even then. This photo doesn't do the visual difference justice, but gives some idea.

 

[rotoflex]

My GT6 has somethings not exactly as it left the factory: different engine, transmission, differential, LH vent window, etc.

If councours is about "as it left the factory", how many points could I get for the factory's big chunk of scuttle from a green GT6 brazed onto the damson one and repainted on my car? A rare feature, I should expect!

 

[Andrew Mace]

Hehe ... can you imagine the carnage that would ensue, if the judges started knocking points off US-spec TRs because they have 'tripod' lamps?

Well, there you get into the sometimes grey area of what is/was an acceptable option, be it factory or dealer-installed, or available aftermarket. OTOH, your typical sidescreen car should have P700 tripods and not PL700 tripods if you're going to have tripods! :wink:

My point was that an owner (or judge) of a typical US-spec. TR2 or TR3 wishing to remain "Concours worthy" should not fret over the lack of presence of a Lucas 700 series bulb-and-reflector headlamp on their car, since it likely originally was sold with sealed-beam tungsten units.

And yes, I know there were exceptions. Personal Export Delivery cars might well slip in with their UK or European-spec. lighting still in place. One of my Heralds is a perfect example, still sporting RHD Lucas 700 headlamps (and red/amber taillamp lenses, and home market front side-flasher lamps) from the year or more the car apparently spent in the UK before being shipped here.

 

[angelfj1]

When I did the total body-off restoration of my 1958 TR3A from 1987 to 1990, there were only a few books that I had and a few parts catalogs including the S-T parts manual with all the part numbers. I also read a few books about concours preparation. So I took my time and did it as original as I could. The car had been sitting in my garage from 1972 where I put it because it was a basket case. I had driven it from new and it had 80,250 miles on the clock. But I knew how it had been when I bought it in 1958.

Since then I have driven it a bit more than 100,000 miles and it is my "concours runner". At VTR in 2007, I was awarded 2nd in class with 386 points out of 400. I have consistently taken 2nd place in many TRA and VTR judged events. I never got a first. But the car is my trophy and every time I drive it, I'm 20 years old again. Life is short and it's wonderful.

Enjoy your car. What will it give you if you win "Best of Show" in a concours event. Drive it and that'll be your prize !

BTW if you want a TR to look just as it was when it left the factory, it would have to have a 2" by 8" wood plank in place of the front bumper and the chromed one would have to be wrapped in circa 1958 oiled paper and lying in its wrapping in the passenger's footwell. It can get a bit crazy.

Nice photo, Don.
That's what I call very nice fit and finish!!!

 

[PeterK]

I bet the aim of those headlights is a little lower these days!


And oh, I got it too .. and it's just beginning to itch.