Degree the cam....name those tools game.

[2wrench]

Okay. The rules are you must name the tool used and
explain how and when it is used in order to degree a
performance cam.

For instance: Would one need a tool to install and remove
crank gears? This is just an example.

Would one have to
use the crank gear puller to put the little sucker on there;
look at it (for diagnostics); pull it off and then put it
back on there again with the chain.

Would one be better off paying a mechanic, as a tool, who
knows what the !%%***%%## in sam !@&%$$$$ he knows he's
doing, because one bit off more than they can chew....and
they don't want to have to take the whole enchilada
(no race implications) apart again?

In the last week I've gotten my crank gear spacer on after
I notched it to slide over the key on the crank for a few
reasons (typical answer for other-than-pro-mechanic).

Long-winded....I'll shut up.

PS: Hope you win.

 

[bash]

You really don't need that many tools. Essentials? Assuming you are installing an aftermarket camshaft, you need a dial gauge (with a magnetic base) and a degree wheel. That's about it. The degree wheel you can buy or print out and make your own - I found one online which was clear and free. Glued it onto a piece of cardboard, cut a hole for the bolt (at the end of the crankshaft) and marked the cam timings on there to avoid having to constantly refer to another piece of paper. You also need a pointer, to show where your crank is in its rotation. I used one of those small skewers that come with turkey basters at the dollar store. The round end fit a 5/16 stud perfectly so it attached to one of the studs for the timing cover. It was easily bent to shape to point at TDC when the crank was at TDC but sturdy enough to withstand a gentle accidental touch.

You can also make a TDC finding tool using a bit of scrap steel or aluminium to bridge the cylinder and a bolt as a piston stop. Turn the crank both ways until you touch the stop, noting the position on your wheel, then mid-way between those two values is TDC. I used my dial gauge to find TDC and was within 0.5 degrees when I checked with the bridge method, which is about as accurate as you are going to get if we are honest.

You don't need to keep taking the crank sprocket on and off. Leave that in place along with the chain and then just move the cam sprocket into position.

Looking back I really don't know why I had so much trouble and it took so long. Doubting myself, probably accounted for most of the time. I will say that if I managed it then you certainly don't need a professional mechanic.

Hope that helps
Alistair

 

[Tinster]

You sure got cajones, D !!

Man-o-man! What a project you have taken on!!

I don't even recognize the NAMES of the stuff
yer writin' about, let alone their finction, where they
are located or how to install them.

When my TR6 engine fails......there will be a red cube
on the output line at "The Crusher".

d

 

[Brosky]

2W,

Never attempt to do a job that you do not fully understand how to do. Particularly if it involves internal engines or brakes. If you do not completely understand the implications of installing the cam improperly, please do not move forward without professional help. Just curious, but are you a member of a club that can send a guy over to help? We do that all the time up here.

Forget the macho "do it on your own" crap and ask the machine shop to set it up for you if you cannot get someone there to show you how to do it.

 

[bash]

Paul

Do you really think doing something on your own is macho? Parhaps if it is a question of lifting the engine in without a crane... My point was that this is a job that can be done by someone who wants to do it himself (or herself). I get great satisfaction from doing jobs on the car on my own - not because I think it makes me more of a man, but because I enjoy doing it and always wanted to take an engine apart (and quite possibly to see how many parts are left over when it goes back together!)

When I first looked at the procedure for timing the cam I was daunted, but I really wanted to try on my own. I got some advice from internet forums such as this, read the manual a dozen times, looked at the parts and got stuck in. It took me a long time to get it done to my satisfaction, and who knows? Maybe I did it all wrong. I guess I will find out if I ever find the time to get the engine back into the car! If someone wants to have a mechanic work on their car that is fine with me - good luck to you, you will almost certainly get more use out of your car and spend less time in your garage scratching your head. I know that's what the hobby is about for some. But let's be honest - these cars and their engines are not cutting edge technology (were they ever?) and given time and a willingness to ask questions pretty much anyone can do most jobs.

Saying that, there is a lot to be said for knowing ones own limits. Sometimes it isn't worth the risk if you aren't confident, but how does one gain confidence without trying? I guess my point is that I don't think my suggestion that 2wrench have a go was in any way aiming to say it was the macho thing to do, nor do I think it was crap. Everyone has their own opinon, though.

 

[Brosky]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Do you really think doing something on your own is macho? Parhaps if it is a question of lifting the engine in without a crane... My point was that this is a job that can be done by someone who wants to do it himself (or herself). I get great satisfaction from doing jobs on the car on my own - not because I think it makes me more of a man, but because I enjoy doing it and always wanted to take an engine apart (and quite possibly to see how many parts are left over when it goes back together!)[/QUOTE]

Bash,

I apologize if you missed my intended point. My comment was neither meant to be flippant or derogatory in any way. I just don't make those type of statements here.

Now, what I did mean, was that I sensed his frustration and did not want him to feel that he had to do this on his own if he didn't grasp what it was that needed to be done. I spent half of my life repairing cars for a living and managing those who did these types of jobs day in and day out. Early on, I made a ton of mistakes on my own and paid dearly for many of them. When I see someone who appears to be struggling and may be unsure, I tried to offer what I felt was good advice in a manner that would disarm, rather than arm a situation.

Again, please accept my apology if this offend you in some manner. That was not my intent to do to either you or 2Wrench.

 

[TR3driver]

Okay. The rules are you must name the tool used and
explain how and when it is used in order to degree a
performance cam.

Impossible. As with almost everything, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Frequently, it's a matter of what tools are available and how they can be used to accomplish the goal.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]For instance: Would one need a tool to install and remove
crank gears?[/QUOTE]Almost certainly you'll need something, even if it's just a big rock and a combination drift/pry bar (the kind commonly sold for turning slotted fasteners).<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Would one have to use the crank gear puller to put the little sucker on there;
look at it (for diagnostics); pull it off and then put it
back on there again with the chain.[/QUOTE]Nope. I don't even own a special-purpose crank gear puller and I've done several engines over the years. Most of the time, you never need to pull the crank gear at all, unless it's worn and in need of replacement. Then usually, the original shim pack is right so you only need to install it once. Doing a second (or third or fourth ...) R&R is only needed if you don't get the shim pack right. Every engine I've wrenched on, you install the crank gear first and the chain (or belt, or cam gear) later. But for each step, you repeat it until it IS right, or find out the hard way whether it's "good enough" or not. (I tend towards the latter method, which is a lot of why my first 3 engine rebuilds didn't turn out so well.)
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Would one be better off paying a mechanic,[/QUOTE]Entirely a matter of circumstances, IMO. If your only goal is to get a good running engine (and cost is no object), then why are you doing ANY of this yourself ? Pay a professional to do all of it, then if it doesn't work out, HE has to fix it.

But if you are trying to save money, or enjoy the sense of satisfaction from doing yourself, then just do it. Even if it goes sour the first time and you have to redo it, it will still likely be less than paying a professional to do everything. And you'll have gained some valuable experience, etc.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] after
I notched it to slide over the key on the crank for a few
reasons [/QUOTE]That statement scares me a little ... reminds me of one of my early engine rebuilds that went sour in a big way. The gear should fit without modification ... if it didn't, then there is something wrong. And modifying the gear is likely the wrong solution, no matter what the problem is.

Same goes for connecting rods

 

[Flinkly]

he notched the shim, not the gear, if i understand correctly.

and as far as doing it yourself, given enough patience and confidence, you should be fine. there is plenty of reading material if you are unsure of procedure, plenty of specialty tools if you want them, and plenty of help from us online and any local clubs.

I'll be putting my gt6 engine back together myself sometime soon and have never put an engine together myself, so i hope it isn't hard. just have fun with it, cause that's what a hobby is for.

 

[Guest]

Dos-wrench, you can do it!

What you gotta do is think of the engine as organic (yes, I know I used this before). Just clear your head and think what the cam is supposed to do. It is designed to open and close the valves. Stock is stock, high performance is the same, just a few degrees off here and there. Get you a Kent timing wheel (plastic disk) from Moss, enlarge the hole and use a large bolt to lightly snug it against the face of the crank. Remember that the key on the crank is also approximately TDC, so it should be pointing up when the 1st piston is at TDC. You can, and should, slide your pulley onto the crank till it clears the end of the crank and gives you room for the timing disk. If you have large biceps you can turn the crank with you hand. I use one of those rubber strap plastic wrenches and just wrap it around the pulley. You can get really slight movements with this, in either direction. If you go past your mark, just flip the plastic wrench and go backwards. If you have original sprockets, the little holes will give you a starting point (line them up). After-market ones will require a little voodoo to get them lined up, that is, slip the cam sprocket off the cam (or crank) and jump it a tooth as needed. Your engine I think is on a stand so doing all this is a lot easier than in the frame (like mine). Hey, I used to have a problem putting the Shimano sprocket back on my son's 10-speed! Oh, and don't all the parts back on the crank (oil thrower, etc.) till you got the cam dialed in. Look from the bottom and watch the cam work. This will tell you a lot.

I was lamenting the other day about having to dial in my new cam, but that was just me being lazy and pre-occupied with other things.

Just get you head inside that engine and think what it is supposed to do. You will become an expert before you know it.

 

[poolboy]

I like that Dr. Bill... So become One with the engine. Ommmmmm. Ommmmmmm Ommmmmm.Ommmmmmm .....It's working, I've got an oil leak.

 

[Brosky]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Just get you head inside that engine and think what it is supposed to do.[/QUOTE]

Bill,

You sound like Carl Spackler (aka Bill Murray) in CaddyShack getting into the gophers head.....

But, good common sense advice, nonetheless.

 

[vettedog72]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Almost certainly you'll need something, even if it's just a big rock..... [/QUOTE]

:lol:Now that is funny; I sure have thought about it but I have not resorted to it.

 

[2wrench]

Okay. So first off, a wholesome thank you to all
responders. Very much appredciated.

Regarding money: I'll spend what I have to. "What I
have to," are the operative words.

I want to save money and learn about the mechanics
involved in the running of my car. If money were totally
of no concern, I would have taken the advice of a friend
who told me to order the engine newly rebuilt from
Moss and be done. Intended to save me time and money.
I would have learned nothing; given up my original block
and spent a lot more money.

So, honestly, I really do want to do as much as I can on
my own for the learning experience; satisfaction and
cost savings.

Hate to say this, but I am still wrestling with the
cam that locks up when the cam retainer is torqued down
more like it should be. Weird. If I do not snug it well,
it works; if I do, she will seize. Really cannot move
seriously forward untill this issue is properly addressed.

Beginning to address cam degree, as I anicipate there will
be a learning curve.

Thanks again to all. I appreciate each and every comment
and you have to know that I know every comment is meant to
offer me your best and most sincere advice.

I'll be posting pics with all the (sorry Dale) dumb
questions. And maybe some poor soul from a local club
would help me. I just don't know. Club members, you
reading this?????

Cheers,

 

[Brosky]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Hate to say this, but I am still wrestling with the
cam that locks up when the cam retainer is torqued down
more like it should be. [/QUOTE]

OK, first things first, How much did you shave off of the retainer? Last I remember was that you were going to polish it down a bit. I don't remember what happened from there.

 

[TR3driver]

And maybe some poor soul from a local club
would help me. I just don't know. Club members, you
reading this?????

Why not contact Triumph Travelers directly ?

I'll bet if you showed up for the meeting tomorrow and promised to help with TRfest, you'd get someone to help with your engine

https://www.triumphtravelers.org/Activites/act08/activityList2008.php

 

[2wrench]

Paul: Regarding the retainer: I contacted bpnorthwest
as well as the machine shop that did the work on my
engine block, etc. Each said the same thing. Just
get the part on a flat surface and sand her down.

So I have done some sanding. Before leaving for the
Scout outting, I thought I had some improvement, but
knew it was still not torqued to 20-22 pounds.

Returned more refreshed after outting and revisited
the issue. Frankly, after a bit more sanding, not
any better. I have this nagging feeling that the thing
is tweaking a bit when torqued and therefore pinching
the cam.

I'm thinking to try getting a shim-type material under
the bolt head(s) to see if it won't allow for proper
torquing without distortion.

It may be I need to order a new retainer.

 

[DrEntropy]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]Hate to say this, but I am still wrestling with the
cam that locks up when the cam retainer is torqued down
more like it should be.

OK, first things first, How much did you shave off of the retainer? Last I remember was that you were going to polish it down a bit. I don't remember what happened from there. [/QUOTE]

From the description of "Lock-up" the retainer is okay as far as the thickness is concerned, rather the radius is too small. As the bolts are tightened the thing binds on the cam's slot O.D.

IMO a Dremel and one of their "barrel" type sanding bits is a solution... can't be more than a few thou too small. A careful and *slight* removal of some material around the I.D. of the retainer would end this dilemma...

...and then you can get on to the next one! :laugh:

 

[vettedog72]

2wrench
Did you measure the retainer before you started the reduction?
Its ok if you did not, but you should measure it now to get a reference reading. (Now that I say that, who cares as long as you get it reduced enought to work; I just like to know where I start and where I finish.) Continue to sand it down (hope you have a polished finish when done) and check often until you get the freeplay you need. If the holes line up why do you think it distorts when it is torqued?

 

[DrEntropy]

From the description of "Lock-up" <span style="font-weight: bold">the retainer is okay as far as the thickness is concerned</span>, rather <span style="font-weight: bold">the radius is too small. As the bolts are tightened the thing binds on the cam's slot O.D.</span>

IMO a Dremel and one of their "barrel" type sanding bits is a solution... can't be more than a few thou too small. <span style="font-weight: bold">A careful and *slight* removal of some material around the I.D.</span> of the retainer would end this dilemma...

 

[Brosky]

Good point Doc. I never thought of that. If it slides in and still binds, the problem should not be the thickness. Just a few thou will make a difference.