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Crypt Clutch 2nd Look-see

martx-5

Yoda
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Dale, listen to the wonderful advice you're getting. Use the cross shaft you bought. Take that bolt that's supposed to hold it in, and dump it in the nearest receptacle. Put in all of the parts you've already bought...the seals, the clutch kit etc. and drive the sucker. The only item you have to worry about at this time is to put an additional pin (or two) in the cross shaft to assure yourself that this "clutch" problem won't happen again. Some guys drill for a 1/4" bolt, I've always used two 1/4" roll (spring) pins and never had a problem. Stop trying to figure out ways to spend more money.

You know, I kinda like the idea of an entourage heading down to Puerto Rico to save the Crypt Car. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif
 
OP
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Guest

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el-morro.jpg





Hmmmmmm. How much is airfare? It's cold here.
 

DNK

Great Pumpkin
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Hey, Dale says there's a tunnel. Don't need a stinken passport.
 
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Tinster

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Whoa Nellie!!

Don't need no passport, Bill.
We is a US of A, red-white & blue, American
colony and we got us Uncle Sam citizenship
just like ya'll do.

OK now- I'm listening to everyone at once.

The Toyota transplant is no-can-do $$$.
Don't even need to ask Wendy on that one.
That would get me the "Crusher" real fast.

Some friends from the northeast have had enough
13* high for day weather and arrive on Thursday
for a nice visit. So I get to cool my TR restoration
woes for the next two weeks.

(I do hope DPO Pedro gets the flu or something)

The custom machined fork shaft should be completed
by then. In two weeks I will pull the flywheel and
get it resurfaced. Can't get it magnafied here but
resurfaced, yes.

I have one TR4A shaft bushing and it fits. I will
order 3 more from Moss.

The rear engine oil seal does not leak all that much.
So, I will leave it alone.

I have no idea about the new shaft fork because I had
to torch burn the old one off. The new fork slides thru
the new shaft.

That's as far as I have taken it. I know nothing about
the 2 disks in the box or the T/O bearing itself. I have
hardly looked at them with all the other stuff going on.

I'll try to install all these TRF and Moss pieces I have
and see if they go together. I'll take it on faith the TR6
stuff fits The Beast.

Then the saga will continue.

Oh BTW- I'm a payback guy. I get a lot so I'll give
some back. Paul knows I got me a little secret and
Bill's idea to share in the island warmth might be
a thing. I'll unveil my secret in a coupla weeks by
photo.

Ever see that bumper sticker:
"My OTHER car is a ........."?

thanks all for your help and encouragement.

d
 

Brosky

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I could go out of Providence via Philly or Charlotte for about $390. 9 hours of travel time, not too bad.

That's to San Juan....which airport, Dale??

Now if I could find the time.......
 
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Tinster

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Bill,

Nice photo of La Perla with fort El Morro
in the distance. Wendy and I attended a
charity chamber music concert within that
photo area, just last night!!

Small world.

Paul-Thanks but it would be a waste of time
right now. Crypty is in too many pieces with
some pieces not yet manufactured or not yet
ordered.

Remember, I still have no rear brakes.

d
 

John_Mc

Jedi Knight
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Tinster said:
I've got $2,000 already spent, now another
$2,500 in parts plus $$ to ship to Puerto Rico
plus maybe another $1,000. in garage space rent
and mechanic's time??

WoW!!! That's getting close to $6,000.
to replace a broken tapered pin in the
clutch fork. My, oh, my!!
Dale,
How much $$$ could you get for Pedro's internal organs on the black market???
 

gsalt57tr3

Jedi Warrior
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Good news, you don't need a passport to go to Puerto Rico.

Its always best to try to fix what you have, I was just so frustrated with the condition of my tranny I went out and did the HVDA
 
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Tinster

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I figure Pedro's innards are worth maybe
$195,000. on the black market.

Anyone good with a scalpel?

d
 

YankeeTR

Luke Skywalker
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If that Crypt Car keeps breaking, Dale will have to move to that little place shown in the lower right side of that picture....
 

Alan_Myers

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Hi again Dale,

Geez. This is getting overly complicated. I think I may have had a hand in making it sound more difficult than it is. I hope I can help clear up some of that. But I'm a little at a disadvantage because it sounds like you have bought *a lot* of parts and I don't know what you have in hand.

I wouldn't say that a conversion to a Toyota 5-speed is necessary, by any means. TR gearboxes are darned good. Not that the Toyota conversions are bad, but we are just repairing a clutch here, right? Not replacing the entire gearbox, I hope! (I suspect the previous post was meant to point out that for roughly $2000-2500 it's feasible to replace the entire gearbox with a modern Toyota, i.e. the dollar amount seems a lot for a relatively straight-forward clutch replacement.)

*If* you want the shaft with the retaining groove and grease drillings, it's $35 at The Roadster Factory. Part #108887. *If* using that, you'll also want the matched bushing with the slot for the side with the bolt. $3.50, #36997. The other, plain bushing you already have. These parts will fit your car, I assure you. All the TR gearboxes are quite similar in this area.

You might want to replace the spring on the clutch shaft: part #105752, $3.25. I don't know if that spring was used on the later cross shafts like the one you have in hand.

The only other thing needed when fitting the earlier style shaft is the two grease zerks: Triumph part #500098, $.95 ea. However, these are standard 90 degree zerks you could probably buy locally if you wished. I bet all this is way cheaper than sending out the shaft you have for special machining.

But, you don't absolutely *have to* use the shaft with the groove in it, unless you really want to. It's optional. Personally I think the grooved shaft is better for locating the shaft and preventing any sideways stresses on the clutch fork, but a lot of cars were built without it and seem to work pretty well. I suspect the mid-production change to a shaft without the grease zerks, groove and bolt was an economic move by Triumph, fewer parts = lower cost and faster assembly. Plus there is "no regular servicing required"... at least theoretically. Here again, I'd personally rather have a greasable bushing in there, for longer term reliability, but many cars are driving around with the greaseless type. The narrower bushings were probably deemed "adequate" by Triumph, but IMHO the wider ones will last longer and help avoid play in the shaft. Again, there are lots of cars on the road with the narrow bushings, though.

Let's move on to a few other things:

You mention the broken taper pin. Way too common a problem. Search here for many previous discussions.

One strong recommendation is to be sure to get the hardened version of this pin whenever replacing it. There were some non-hardened ones around that snapped off way too easily. I honestly don't know if those are still on suppliers' shelves. Just to be sure, TRF has superceded the original #56965 with part #158777 which is a high tensile steel version. It costs $9.50. Be sure to install new safety wire there, too. It's standard .040" stainless wire available locally. Also, before installing it on the shaft I recommend pre-drilling the release fork on the back side, sort of in line with the taper pin, in case it ever breaks again and needs to be tapped out. This hole needs to be accessible to some degree, to push a broken pin end out of the hole, so might need to be angled a little. An 1/8" hole is generally adequate.

Optional but highly recommended is to install a 1/4" Grade 8 bolt (UNF or fine thread recommended) as a backup for the taper pin. This is done by drilling all the way through the fork and cross shaft. Some care has to be taken that the drilling is a good fit to the bolt. The hole can be placed in the middle or off to one side of the fork. Just pick a point with a reasonable amount of metal as a stronger anchoring point. Use a bolt that's long enough the unthreaded shank passes all the way through fork and shaft, so that no threads are inside the hole where they will ream it out. This may mean putting one or two washers under the nut and bolt. Use a self-locking nut on this bolt, either a nylok or even better an all-metal jetnut.

The flywheel should probably be refaced. So, it needs to come off anyway. The old bolts might be very tight, might need to be gently heated with a torch to release Locktite. When reinstalling, use Locktite. Refacing is a pretty standard machine shop job and shouldn't be terribly expensive. Also have the shop check it for balance! (They might check the clutch pressure plate for balance, too. I recommend that be done separately, not while mounted on the flywheel.) At the flywheel, I suggest not reusing the bolts. Some are the stretch type, meant only for one full torque use (particularly on later TRs like your 6). A clue is if they don't have tab locking washers under them. There are stronger, upgraded bolts like those made by ARP, possibly through some of the vendors.

While the flywheel is off for refacing is an opportunity to replace the rear main seal. Others who are more familiar with that procedure on the 6-cyl. engine should advise you.

The next considerations involve the linkage between the slave cylinder and the release lever. If there is significant wear on it, the clevis pin might best be replaced. Although I'm sure the various vendors offer one, this is another locally available item It's simply a 1/4" clevis that might need to be cut down and drilled to the right length. Also check for wear in the holes of the pushrod from the slave cylinder. If you end up replacing it, It is part #138572, $11.50 at TRF. Or, there are special versions of the pushrod available that are adjustable and a useful upgrade over the non-adjustable orginals. I don't have a source for these, but they seemn to appear on EBay quite often and some of the suppliers might carry them.

Another thing that you can upgrade here, if you wish, is to install a TR4-style secondary return spring. This just helps to insure the slave cylinder fully retracts. The spring is part #43929 at TRF, $1.95. To fit it, you would need a special little part that fits under the clevis pin to give an anchor point for one end of the spring, part #106347 is $2.95 at TRF. The other end of the spring attaches in a hole in the slave cylinder mounting plate.

If you bought a new clutch kit, you'll generally find it includes a driven plate, a pressure plate and a throwout bearing. Don't throw away your old pressure plate! If it's the original from your car, it's rebuildable and is likely better than anything currently on the market! Unfortnuately, the only place I know for certain rebuilds them is in England.

Today's replacement pressure plates are homologated from similar parts in other cars. I.e., whree the manufacturers used to make several with slightly different specs they now offer "one size fits all". I think what's most generally sold for TRs is actually a Saab or Volvo clutch. It's got slightly stronger springs than the original. For a while, there was one being sold that had way stronger springs, and caused problems such as rapid throw out bearing failures and hard wear on the various linkage. Here the vendor who supplies it needs to advise you. Hopefully it's something they've had little or no trouble with when installed in TR6. Not an area I've had much opportunity to compare different options, other than noting that there has been a lot of discussion and various solutions proposed, here and elsewhere on the Internet and in a number of books.

One place it's easy to get in trouble is when installing the throw out bearing onto its carrier. With many cars, it's just a matter of putting the two pieces in a vise and pressing the bearing onto the carrier. But, when that's done with TR throwout bearings, it often distorts the bearing surfaces and causes the bearing to fail way too fast. I am mentioning this because many installers aren't aware of this and just go ahead and use the "usual" method, then end up having to replace the TO bearing in just a few thousand miles. A solution that generally works well is lube the bearing, then rotate it while squarely pressing it into place on its carrier. To facilitate this, TRF sells a tool #RFT118 for about $30, with instructions how to use it. An alternative is to buy a pre-installed bearing and carrier assembly such as TRF's RFK1121, for about $90. There are also a couple different upgraded throwout bearings which some people like, others don't. The "Gunst" is one of these, but I suggest researching any of these before spending the extra dollars.

I was unclear if you were installing a new release fork or reusing the old one. If reusing the old one, please look closely at the two pins that ride in the slot in the throw out bearing carrier. Likely those pins are worn flat on the sides that contact the carrier and will give some slop when actuating the throw out bearign, that can lead to some problems. One simple and cheap solution is just to rotate the two pins so that fresh, unworn areas are in contact with the slot of the carrier. That should eliminate any slop. Alternatively, the pins can be replaced in an old fork, two ea. #100164, $2.50 apiece at TRF. If, on the other hand, you replace the entire fork (#106022, $49.95 at TRF), it probably will come with new pins already installed.

I suggest reading TRF's notes about gearbox installation at https://www.zeni.net/trf/TR6-250GC/54.php, and perhaps passing them along to the installer if using a mechanic instead of doing the job yourself.

One other part you might want to replace while the flywheel is off is the bronze pilot bushing in the tail of the crankshaft. Here it's helpful to know your engine and gearbox are early versions and use part #47246, $4.50 at TRF. Be sure to smear a little grease in there during installation, too. The front protrusion of the gearbox input shaft rides in the pilot bushing.

The above should help put the car back together and get it on the road. There are other things that can optionally be done, now or later, to help insure a long lived clutch. It's not so much that any of the parts are expensive or difficult, just that it's not fun to do the job more often than absolutely necessary!

One possible upgrade is at the clutch master cylinder. Triumph went to a .70" MC on TR6 (maybe earlier). This was done to make the pedal a little easier. Unfortunately, it also reduces the movement at the release lever and leaves very little room for error (compounded by the fact that the original parts there were also no longer adjustable). For a bit of added security, I suggest a .75" bore master cylinder, should you ever rebuild or replace it. If rebuilding, it's possible to have the original bored out to the slightly larger size (or perhaps sleeved, if that's needed, https://www.applehydraulics.com and others do this sort of repair).

Note, a key reason I use TRF and a couple other vendors is that they mostly use the original Triumph parts numbering system for reference. Heck, some parts had these number cast into or stamped onto them. Even if that isn't the case, with the correct TR "Stanpart Spares" catalog in hand, finding the right parts is pretty easy and many of the mid-production changes are noted right there.

On the other hand, I do like that Moss has so many of the catalog pages online for quick and easy reference. I see that Revington TR in England is gradually adding these too.
 
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Tinster

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Thanks Alan,

Status:

1. All the clutch hydraulics are Roadster Factory
New and professionally installed. Including a new
SS braided hose from master to slave.

2. I have on hand the entire TRF magic clutch kit
plus their fork/shaft/TO bearing kit. The components
are quite different from those I removed. I don't know
if they will fit my car. I am having a new fork shaft
custom machined with everything modified to it you recommended.

3. I always replace fasteners with new. I bought
the 4 new SAE8 bolts plus the spring today locally-
$17.80--ouch!!

4. I have not pulled the flywheel yet because I have a
TR6 rear oil seal and I do not know if it is correct
for a TR250 engine. I have a new TR6 oil seal for my
tranny and it is NOT correct.

5. I have found a place to resurface my flywheel.

Here is a photo of my old vrs new clutch parts.
Thanks as always-- dale

NEWCLUTCH.jpg
 

TRopic6

Jedi Warrior
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Aloha, Tinster. I just registered and I feel compelled to support a fellow island dweller with my first post. There's a lot of great info here and all I can add is don't give up. I put my 74 TR6 back on the road after it sat in the DPO's garage for 10 years. I've been better off doing everything myself - I drive it every day and it has been very reliable.

By the numbers, you do have a TR250 engine/gearbox, but it's the same as the 69 TR6 engine/gearbox (in 1970 the crank & flywheel changed). The oil seal is the same, but there's a caution not to forget the copper washer under the head of the oil seal carrier top bolt.

I'm rebuilding a spare TR6 trans I got and in a few weeks will be doing what you are now. I also got the long brass crossshaft bushings and they work fine. Your old throwout bearing carrier seems to have a very wide fork pin groove - the new one should take some slop out of the system!

I'm impressed with Alan's post and Paul's pictorial of doing the job - they'll come in handy to me fo' sure. You'll end up doing a better job than a shop and you'll be proud of the accomplishment - Give 'em, brah!

Jeff Fetner
Hickam AFB, Hawaii
74 TR6 CF13816U
 

swift6

Yoda
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Dale, don't worry about your rear main seal. If its for a TR6 it will fit a TR250. The only other diffeence in that area is in the pilot bushings for the transmission. One goes in the crankshaft, the other goes in the flywheel. Which is also part of that 1970 change in flywheel and crankshaft.
 

Brosky

Great Pumpkin
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Welcome Jeff!

And if you're among those wonderful folks serving in the US Armed Forces, Thank You! God Bless you all.

Paul
 

DNK

Great Pumpkin
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Naw,Jeff is just one of the lucky ones to live in Paradise.
Good to see you here Jeff!
don Kelly
 

Brosky

Great Pumpkin
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I just looked closely at this picture. No wonder the Crypt car is all screwed up. That bearing on the left of Dale's picture is the infamous "Gunst" bearing that gave me all of the grief last fall. That wide slot area around the sleeve is meant to be filled with a square block on each side of the fork, that fit over the fork pins. There is a special way to install them. Good riddance......
 
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