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Would this count as sacrilege?

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So I've made up my mind that MPFI and a supercharger is the way to go. The more I read, the better it looks.

With that in mind, I found the attached for sale and purchased it. It's a full PI setup from a 74 supposedly working when removed, the other bits - distributor drive, PI camshaft et al in the other pics I didn't attach. I'm now waiting impatiently for it to arrive.

My thought was to have the throttle bodies converted to use bosch injectors, a common rail attached and the plenum permanently attached to the throttle bodies with fabbed pieces that mirror the flexible connections.

I can then either use the throttles that are on there, or mount a throttle body on the end of the plenum and feed the output from the supercharger through that. A bit of electronics, some spit and a lot of duct tape and hopefully I'll have mpfi. (Seriously I do have some idea of the other pieces I'll need).

My problem now is that I'm having second thoughts. I can probably get an intake manifold fabbed up for about the same as I paid for this setup with the mods and I'm thinking that it's not a nice thing to do to modify this stuff.

So my question I guess is - do you as a group think this is

1) Rare (rather than uncommon)
2) Desirable enough that I should sell it to someone who wants to do a 'real' PI conversion and use the cash to get a custom manifold fabricated?

I have no strong opinions either way, but I'd hate to destroy something irreplaceable.

I quite like way the plenum looks on Lee Jannsens site, but then he isn't using the stock throttle bodies. I'm sure I could get something I'd like just as much made up though.
 

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Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

I am going down the EFI road as well.
I have a complete PI system and will be modifying the Manifolds to install injector pockets.

What efi System are you going to use?

Try the megasquirt web site, it is a cheap and has an excelent forum for followers of this system.

https://www.msefi.com/

I cant offer anything on Supercharging, as I don't think I will be doing that.

Good luck with your project
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

I've looked at a bunch. The fact that you have to put the megasquirt together puts me off.

I was thinking right now (based on a recommendation) of either the Holley 950 or the TEC-3 like Rick Pattens setup.
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

May I ask how much you payed for that PI setup? Sure are hard to find...
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

Hi Alan,

I say have at it. Those PI setups are rare in the U.S., but not uncommon in the UK. So, go for it and see what you can rig up!

You're braver than me, experimenting with EFI. I'd be inclined to save up for one of the kits. So, your set up would be "more original" than mine!
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

Alan, there really aren't any bolt on kits and that's the problem. If there were I'd have bought one.

The new TWM manifold (at $4200 and not ready until next year) is the only one I've seen, and you still have to get all the other bits and do all the rest of the work anyway (so around another 3k). Even with that their airbox can't be pressurized (I asked) and they have no plans to make one that can.

7k is a bit strong for just EFI. I want a supercharger on there plumbed in and all working for that money. If I can't get a V8 I'll go the other route that's open for large power gains.

I originally (through total ignorance) thought EFI was madly madly complicated. I've been doing a ton of reading, and now I'm convinced it's not as bad as I'd feared.

If I get the intake manifold done right - and I have emails out to a couple of places that do custom intake manifolds - I'm waiting for a price for one built from scratch as opposed to reconditioning and then converting the PI setup before figuring what makes sense.

With that done it's a case of having the crank and cam triggers on and working and the rest of the pieces mounted and plumbed in.

After that it's all computer programming. That bit I can do...
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

Certainly as the $$ go up, your options for what that will buy will increase. Heck, for that kind of $$, I'd go for an all-aluminum corvette V8. Then of course, the stock differential would grenade first time you lean on it.
The local online auction site has options in those areas.
good luck!
Jeff
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

I already beat the V8 idea to death in a different thread. I'm putting in an R200 diff and the supra box so the drivetrain isn't an issue. Suspension and brakes have been done already and the frame is ok. The engine is being rebuilt, so I'm not worried that stuff will break given the expected output.

My specific question was whether it's sacrilege to butcher a 'real' pi system for this setup, or if I should sell it on and have a manifold fabbed.

The rest of the stuff is probably for a seperate "which ecu would you use" thread, which you will doubtless see in a couple of months or so when I get the car back.
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

Sacrilage is *******, its your car and your money, do what you want. There are pleny of TR6's and I would guess that F.I. manifold isn't really that rare.
A F.I. Tr6 with a supercharger is rare and sure would be sweet. Good luck with the project, I believe there are a number of people that will build you a Mega squirt.
 
Sacrilege, schmacrilege

Hi,

I dunno about sacrilege, that's in the eye of the beholder. I just like the name "Mega Squirt". Do they have fender badges that say "Powered by Mega Squirt"? In cloisonne enamel, of course.

Other Little British Car owner at car show: "What you runnin' in that thing?"

You: "Mega Squirt."

Other LBC owner: "It was a fair question, there's no need to be insulting!"

I wish I had the $$$, talent, and time to take on a project like that. Good luck!

Best regards,
 
Re: Sacrilege, schmacrilege

Alan,

I say go for it. From all that I've read, the only way to really tap the real potential of forced induction is with fuel injection.

Unless you plan to use the OEM FI setup in the future somewhere, I would sell it to a good home and use the proceeds to finance a custom intake. At least with a custom job you won't be compromising on the setup. As a consequence, you'll probably learn more than you ever wanted to know about forced induction fuel injection.

Have you considered going turbo? My reasoning is this: Lots of people have done FI manifolds for naturally aspirated Triumphs, so that part's done. Moreover, there are also lots of places that can fab the exhaust tubing for a turbo, but not so much for intake fabrication. It looks like there would be enough room in front of the radiator for a small inter-cooler. FI and turbos go hand in hand... and with this, you could install the FI and get it semi working and debugged before you added the nightmare that can be forced induction.

Anyway, something to think about....
 
Re: Sacrilege, schmacrilege

Since I don't know much about fuel injection you'll have to excuse me if this suggestion makes no sense!
Could you not get a manifold frtom the UK, from a Lucas mechanical injection car that has been coverted to carbs; apparently this was common at one time when there were very few specialists to service the system, and unleaded fuel caused some problems, I think with the metering units?
Alternatively, could yopu not drill holes for the injector bossed into a set ok Weber DCOE inlet manifolds; I know they curve, but not that much!
Simon.
 
Re: So maybe custom IS the way to go...

I could but then I still have the airbox to worry about, and I's still have to get a fuel rail.

I think at this point I'm leaning towards getting a custom one made and selling on the PI setup when it arrives. I'm waiting for a final quote from one fabricator, but it seems this will cost only little more than the mods to the PI setup (with the cost of the PI included).

Shannon - I don't want to go turbo because I'm scared of screwing something up - It's twice as much fabrication work. They have lag. There is much more likelihood of blowing the engine in the hands of an idiot (me that is!).

I know you can get round these all with some work, but it seems that an s/c setup will be easier. I reserve the right to change my mind though...
 
Re: So maybe custom IS the way to go...

Alan,

Actually, you've got to worry about the same things whether or not you choose turbo or s/c. Your air/fuel ratio is king. Forced induction loves a lean mixture, but there's a fine line between safe and dangerous. What FI allows you to do is to precisely control the A/F ratio throughout the entire RPM range. You can do this with carbs, but it's much harder to tune. Most people tend to run their engine a little (or a lot) rich to be on the safe side. I know when I had my "Paxtonized" 2000 Mustang GT, there was 50 horsepower difference from the default "pig rich" program to the finalized tuned version. My limitations were from my motor, not the blower. I know there was a popular saying in the Forced Induction Mustang ranks ; "The leaner the meaner.... until it blows..."

As far as turbo lag, it really depends on the size of the turbo unit; usually the smaller the less lag. If you went that route, I'm sure you could pick up a rebuilt unit from a T-bird or Mustang SVO for pretty cheap.

As for as complicated setups. Id say it's a wash. Either way your going to be fabricating something. It seems to me that there would be a lot more physics involved for an intake manifold than for a turbo exhaust setup. Not to minimize the importance of either, but thats the way it is in my head.

Plus, with an intercooler, you can generate some sick power with a turbo. Although superchargers can be intercooled too.

I'm not neccessarily trying to talk you into a turbo setup, after all, I've only done supercharging myself, but a nicely tuned turbo can usually outperform a supercharger on a small motor. Since you're still in the planning stages, it might be worth doing a little research on turbos.
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

[ QUOTE ]
Alan, there really aren't any bolt on kits and that's the problem. If there were I'd have bought one.


7k is a bit strong for just EFI.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh but there are complete bolt on kits available. Revington TR has them. ( https://www.revingtontr.com )

They can be had for TR2-6 in choice of set ups. EFI plus complete engine management with standard dizzys up through crank triggered multi coil units.

With the exchange rate so steep though it quickly approaches and eclipses that 7k mark.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
It's a funny old world...

I saw the kits. Way too much with the exchange rate and import duty.

It's funny how things work out. I've been toying with various combinations of this idea for a while. I started out with the idea of supercharging the thing after seeing Mitch Seffs car.

I then saw a bunch of turbo'd sites - but I still am leery of turbos - and then finally saw Rick Pattens site.

After that there was no question about what I wanted...

I spent some time reading about it and thought that modifying the stock PI setup would be a cheap and easy way to get an intake manifold after pricing the TWM manifold at $4200.

I even found a PI setup for sale in the USA - it's in the tender care of UPS right now. Of course now I have spoken to a custom fabrication shop and they can knock me up a custom manifold out of 6061 for somewhat less than half that of the TWM offering. You can guess which way I'm going...

So now I have a few questions:

1. Does anyone have engineering drawings of the stock intake manifold scanned in? My car is at the shop and I'd really like dimensions - especially port dimensions and bolt holes with as little effort as possible on my part /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif . Failing that does anyone have a spare intake manifold they'd be willing to part with for a small amount of money (I'd only want it for a couple of months to send off to the shop) I could give them a gasket, but I'd rather it was exact...

2. To save me an hours drive to my car, I'd be really grateful if someone could take the time to measure between the block, the hood and the fender so's I know how much clearance there is for the plenum runners and fuel rail.

3. Is anyone interested in a PI setup? It looks like I won't be needing it. I paid just under $900 with shipping and I'll let it go for the same. I'll have better pics when it arrives. It's supposed to be complete and taken from a working 74, but I can't vouch for that personally as I haven't seen a pic of the camshaft. I have seen (and have) pics of the rest. PM me if you are. If not it's off to Ebay with it.

TIA for any help, Alan

Oh and on the offchance anyone else is interested in the manifold, I'll be happy to provide the name of the shop by PM.
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

7K sounds an expensive system, So far I am out of pocket about $800 and that was mostly the cost of a UK PI system (I will probably sell the metering unit if any body is intrested)
I only have to purchase the megasuirt items and that's another $350 ish. after that it's a few sensors and some manifold modifications.

My budget for the EFI is between $1500 and $2000

If you are not electronicaly inclined, you can buy the megasquirt ready assembeled to save building the unit. There are a couple of suppliers linked on the megasquirt web site.

https://www.diyautotune.com/


If I did not have the PI manifolds, Weber make Throttle bodies in the DCOE format.

If you are going to supercharge it, I would make a custom plenum from the Supercharger to the head and use a throtle body available from any aftermarket EFI Car (select a mouth opening that would work with the supercharger.)
This is a link To a guy named lee Janssen. He has a EFI turbo TR6
This may be of some help.

https://www.turbo-tr6.info/

Don't forget, It's your car, money and time and you can do what you want with it.

I'm doing it becouse I can.

best regards
Colin
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

Colin, if you had read the whole thread, you'd have seen that

1. I referenced Lee Jannsens site in my FIRST post. He has a great setup and the way the plenum looked on his car was what made me think the PI setup might be the way to go for a pressure capable FI intake layout.

I'm not as talented as he is though, so I'm having to pay for my modifications. I need an airbox I can pressurize, and I don't want trouble balancing airflow so I'm going to use a single throttle body. It's going to be better for me to have a manifold built, so that's what I'm doing.

2. The Megasquirt is an unashamedly cheap setup. If you don't care about it's limitations - no sequential FI, no cam sensor, requires extra boards for ignition control, no IAC, no knock sensing for a start, then it's fine. In fact for what it costs its unbeatable.

I do care though. I want something I can bolt together and shove on a dyno to get running well. I want a warranty and I want tech support if I fail to RTFM. I'm not ashamed to admit it either...

Good luck in your project. You might want to budget having the throttle bodies rebushed. Also since you aren't doing any boost, make sure you have a PI cam (or similar) and you ought to boost your compression to at least 9.5:1. If not then you might be disappointed in the results.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Re: Would this count as sacrilige?

Alana,

Megasquirt has had ignition control on board for a while now (with the MSnS-extra firmware) as well as IAC control, no extra boards. That was a criteria when I ordered my setup over a year ago. Yes, both of those features were also added IIRC with the MSII daughterboard which is primarily a faster processor but it doesn't mean that's the only way to get them.

You can buy Megasquirt setups preassembled from RS Autosport or other vendors which come with warranties and everything. Having the PI manifolds machined is not difficult, I had a local machinist do it very cheaply. And finally just like you I wanted a single TB so I removed the 6 individuals and put one large TB on the PI airbox. It's not complete (can't wire it until the shop finishes my interior) but there is a photo in my photo gallery (unfortunately I had the airbox off at the time).

I'm out of pocket ~$600 right now on my setup I think.
 
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