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TR4/4A What did I do wrong?

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bammons

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I reached the point on my engine rebuild where it was time to replace the sump pan. I was feeling good that that meant I was done down there and could flip the motor to tackle the timing gears etc. I put Hylomar on the block and the side of the gasket that would go against it. I realized I did not have enough Hylomar to finish so I used Permatex Ultra Blue on the remaining two faces and put the pan on and only barely turned the bolts in until they barely started oozing sealant as per instructions for Ultra Blue. I was supposed to wait a hour and torque down. I only waited about 40 minutes and torqued them down. Afterwards I was scraping some excess off and saw that at several places where the bolts are the gasket had torn and the narrow section of the gasket between the bolt and the outside was sticking out. I don't even understand how that could happen as the bolts of course are against the oil pan not against the gasket. Any ideas what happened? Suggestions Bruce:grumpy:
 
Maybe the sealant stuck to the bolts and the gasket and when you snugged them down it tore the gasket? Just a guess.
 
Bruce,
This won’t help your current problem, but I use Ultra Gray between the pan and gasket and put it on my wife’s granite counter top to set up. This gives me a very true and flat surface for the interface between the block and gasket when that time arrives. I also wait until I’m finished with everything before I mount the pan so small parts can be removed and adjustments made.
Rut
 
If Hylomar is used on both sides of a gasket, it can slide around since Hylomar never dries.

The best practice is to glue the gasket to the movable part, i.e. the pan, with weatherstrip adhesive or Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket. Let it dry overnight on a flat surface such as a glass tabletop with wax paper. I place bolts in the holes to keep the gasket located on the pan, with a brick on top to provide moderate pressure while it dries. Use a light coating of Hylomar between the gasket and engine block.
 
Whoa, Rut, you are a brave man, your wife's granite counter top!!!???
I baked my formula ford headers in our oven the first year I was married and quickly figured out that the way to stay married for 40 years was not to try something like that again.
I also use the Yamalube gray sealant.
I'm over in Montevallo and will be in Orange Beach sometime in Sept. Post COVID, we need to get together.
 
The sealer was still pliable as it did ooze out when I torqued it after 40 minute so I am having a had time believing the pull from turning a bolt would tear it even if it had attached some to the bolt. The gasket was carefully placed in relation to the bolt holes and immediately bolts were threaded in each hole to locate the gasket. Torqued to 18lbs with a bar torque wrench. Most bolt holes have the gasket torn. Just wondering if this was something that happens or just luck me.
 
Steve what you say makes some sense as gluing first to the sump followed up by Hylomar on the bottom should prevent what happened to me. The gasket can't move that way. Now to order a new gasket and Hylomar. As usual keep trying! Bruce
 
Hylomar is not a good sealant for the oil pan. I have done what you did a couple times. The issue is the never-drying type of sealants become a lubricant as the bolts are tightened, and the gasket is squeezed apart as you tighten. Ultra blue (silicone) will do the same thing if you do not wait the hour like it recommends. After an hour it becomes a solid and will not lubricate the gasket. I learned to never tighten on silicone sealers for at least 24 hours. Hylomar never dries, so you can never fully torque the pan bolts to spec if you use it. Permatex gasket maker is somewhere in between. You still cannot torque it immediately, but after an hour it is cured enough.
 
jfarris said:
Whoa, Rut, you are a brave man, your wife's granite counter top!!!???
I baked my formula ford headers in our oven the first year I was married and quickly figured out that the way to stay married for 40 years was not to try something like that again.
I also use the Yamalube gray sealant.
I'm over in Montevallo and will be in Orange Beach sometime in Sept. Post COVID, we need to get together.
Click to expand...
Jim,
Not brave, just stupid! I use Yamahabond/HondaBond on a lot of of sealing surfaces and it’s the best product I’ve used, with or without a gasket. We try to get down to Orange Beach every 3 weeks or so, so maybe we can connect.
Rut
 
CJD said:
Hylomar is not a good sealant for the oil pan. I have done what you did a couple times. The issue is the never-drying type of sealants become a lubricant as the bolts are tightened, and the gasket is squeezed apart as you tighten. Ultra blue (silicone) will do the same thing if you do not wait the hour like it recommends. After an hour it becomes a solid and will not lubricate the gasket. I learned to never tighten on silicone sealers for at least 24 hours. Hylomar never dries, so you can never fully torque the pan bolts to spec if you use it. Permatex gasket maker is somewhere in between. You still cannot torque it immediately, but after an hour it is cured enough.
Click to expand...

John - Regarding Hylomar, I respectfully disagree, as I think the effects you describe are due to over-tightening, or having Hylomar on both surfaces of the gasket.

All the other statements regarding Permatex I agree with. We are probably discussing two different ways of approaching the same issue.

IMO the takeaway is to not use Hylomar on both sides of the same gasket.

PS - I've used Permatex Ultra Gray and it's the very devil to get off or separate the gasket later on. Racers I know like Aviation Form A Gasket because it sets up, sort of, over time, but is still easy to scrape off or remove with paint remover.
 
On sheetmetal parts like the pan, you need to put the edge with the bolt holes on a wooden block and strike the holes, on the mating face, with the round end of a ball peen hammer before assembly and don't over tighten. If you start out with the holes proud of the flange, you invite leaks and squished gaskets.
Bob
 
I use black sealant thinly on pan and set gasket on pan, turn over and weigh down until sealant glues gasket to pan. Then again black sealant on block and let set then tighten with a 1/4 drive socket as usually you cannot go past 30lbs with small handle 1/4 drive. Let set and recheck. Recheck after 500 miles. Possiblity of an old dried gasket coming off shelf after years of setting.
 
Larry - It was a brand new Payen gasket. Bob - I checked for cupping at the holes before and all was good. Steve - Bolts were torqued to spec. John - I believe you have probably identified the cause of the gasket tearing. I wanted to use Hylomar because I understood it to be maybe the best choice but I am tempted to use Permatex Aviation Form a Gasket which I have on all surfaces letting it dry on the pan first as described above. So my mistake was using the sealers on both surfaces that were be joined on top of not waiting long enough. Thanks guys at least I now know what to do the next time. Bruce
 
Got it. I know different sealers work on certain purposes. I was introduced to hylomar when the Jags in the 80s and Rovers also in the 80s went all aluminum and used it to seal aluminum to aluminum with no gaskets.I have never tried aluminum to steel. I always use a non hardening sealer on aluminum side and a hard sealer on steel to compensate for the difference in metals. I always spray metal head gaskets with copper spray on aluminum heads to iron or steel. I use a lot of avation form a gasket on most of my rebuilds. Used to be Indian Head Sealer.
 
If your gasket is a thicker style (cork, rubberized paper or rubber-like), I use little or no sealant, as the gasket is designed to seal without it. The exception is if the pan or block mating surfaces are marred, pitted from rust, or deformed. In those cases I use a small amount of sealant just in those areas. I have split so many thick pan gaskets that I never torque the pan down until a day or so later. I haven’t split one since then...it takes a while, but I do learn.

Thin paper gaskets are where the hylomar excels. Paper normally needs some small amount of a sealant unless the mating surfaces are almost perfect.

Many gasket makers are above par, and I never use sealant with their gaskets. FelPro comes to mind. They pre-coat their gaskets with a sealant and adding any is just redundant. I wish I could find FelPro gaskets for our Triumphs. Most of our gaskets are from unknown and undetermined suppliers, with varying quality.
 
Years ago we used Aviation Permatex for nearly all gasket work. My TR6 valve cover gasket is tight as a drum because we coated the gasket on one side so it would not slide around. When it comes off, I may have to do a little scraping but its worth it. Ditto with the pan gasket when we changed out the thrust washers a few years ago.
 
Wow, I wish I had read this thread 6 months ago *before* I put my new oil pan gasket on with Hylomar on both sides...
 
To help with getting more flat surface over the bolt hole and not deforming it, I use 1/4" washers on the oil pan and the timing cover.
What kind of sealant I used, well that's a good ?
 

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TR6easy - I was wondering why that wasn't done from the factory. That would seem to help with the "belling". I might do that to although from what I've read it isn't a issue unless it is overtightned
 
TR 6 1973 Av Permatex is my choice for many years and just on one side and around all holes gasket to pan. flatting pan holes also a must. and recheck bolt days later. I have a Alum valve cover and the use of a cork gasket or other would not work as there is nothing to hold it in place. My fix was to clean cover to remove any oil. I then put Versachem Mega Gray gasket Maker on cover as a round bead and let set over night. As I just did today to adjust valves I have remover several times and it still does not leak and can not move and never needs to be cleaned off but would be easy to do . I did the same thing to the side covers of my 1967 MG B transmission And I also rubbed same covers over 600 wet & day on a peace of spare granite to true and flat before adding gasket maker. Time and leaks wait for no man time now is time saved. Madflyer
 
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