TR4/4A Triumph TR 4 Title issue

[emgeetf]

I am trying to sell my Triumph Tr 4 and realized that there were 7 digits in the vin number on the title I had. I went and checked the Vin number on the car and it had 5 numbers and was not the same numbers as was on the title. I took my title to the local DMV and tried to explain to the lady there that there was a mistake made when the title was issued to the former owner of the car. She was more than sympathetic since she Knew what a Triumph Tr 4 was since her husband had owned one when they were growing up in another country. Long story short she called the state and told me that I had to contact the former owner and get an affidavit from him on a correction form with his signature and then submit to the state for consideration.

The former owner cannot be located since it has been 20 years since I purchased the car so i was out of luck in trying to get it done through the state. When I thought that the situation looked bleak i came upon some pertinent information when i was cleaning the car. Inside the glove box was the original owners manual and also there was a Triumph service schedule book dated 1965 with about 30 pages on it. on opening the service scheduling book the inside cover page had all the original sales information was filled in under the heading Memorandum. According to this information the car was originally sold by Kramer Motors in Santa Minica Blvd in California in May 14 th of 1966 which was given as the purchase date. The original owners name and address was also filled in but the Commission number and registration number was left blank. However the engine number was filled in and it had 7 digits with a L at the end. I checked this number with my title Vin number and to my surprise they matched exactly. So the car when New had been registered under the engine number and not the actual VIN number of the car by Kramer Motors and subsequently sold with the engine number as the VIN number.

My question is as much as i know this was a mistake but a common practice in the sixties, how do i correct this situation and get a proper title with the corrrect VIN nuber ? Like I stated earlier the former owner cannot be located to sign any corrected papers.

Secondly There are provisions in the same Memorandum in the Maintainance schedule and there is a place for a commision number and a registration number to be noted down. Both were left Blank and only the engine number was filled in. This I can understand because it was a Mantainance schedule and they only needed the engine number for servicing the car. But what excatly is the difference between the registration number and the comission number of the car and which of these should also be the same as the Vehicle identification number of the car ? ( VIN number )

 

[PeterK]

A british motor heritage certificate would contain both ther comission number as well as the engine number and other pertinent info. There is no 15-digit VIN on older cars so the comission number (the one stamped on the plate riveted to the firewall) is generally used. If that plate is missing, the certificate would provide a proof of ownership document for you. Cost is well worth it. You would probably need to call them and tell them that you only have the engine#. There is also a body number plate on the left rear inner fender. Also rear end # gearbox #, chassis # below engine fan. Find them all.

My car, I would get the cert and take that to DMV as proof. Might still be a hassle but less so with the cert.

https://www.heritage-motor-centre.c...d-archive-services/heritage-certificates.html

 

[glemon]

I don't think it was uncommon, especially with foreign cars, they had a lot of numbers on them, and sometimes they were titled with the wrong one. My old Austin Healey was titled with the body number instead of the chassis number, I thought about getting it changed, but ultimately decided it might be a big headache for little reward.

I did notice when I went to title my TR250 that the DMV does have a book that tells them where the vin tags should be, even on something as old and somewhat rare as a 68 Triumph.

 

[Geo Hahn]

...there was a Triumph service schedule book dated 1965 with about 30 pages on it. on opening the service scheduling book the inside cover page had all the original sales information was filled in under the heading Memorandum. According to this information the car was originally sold by Kramer Motors in Santa Minica Blvd in California in May 14 th of 1966 which was given as the purchase date. The original owners name and address was also filled in but the Commission number and registration number was left blank...

Seems like you could correct that oversight

I any case, if your car has the original engine then the situation is easily explainable to a buyer (the BMIHT cert would also be good as noted).

 

[charleyf]

If I am reading your explanation correctly , you state that the engine number ends with an L. The engine number should end with a "E". So do the numbers on the title match the engine numbers?
California also had a program in which they added an extra plate which included "STC1964". If the year the car was sold was in 1964. On one of my TR4's the registration number is STC1963CT20000L. This is one case where the commission number and the registration numbers are different, although do include some of the same numbers.

A friend of mine has a favorite story about trying to deal with a car title. The DMV clerk insisted that he had to have the previous owners signature on the document and would not budge off of that fact. So he took the document out to the parking lot and got "a" signature in that blank space and the clerk was happy as a lark and processed the paperwork.
Charley

 

[Geo Hahn]

If I am reading your explanation correctly , you state that the engine number ends with an L. The engine number should end with a "E". So do the numbers on the title match the engine numbers?

Just after reading that I was working under the bonnet on the left side of the engine and noticed that. with the work light at a particular angle, the 'E' looked like an 'L' due to some dirt or perhaps the way the letter was struck. I'm thinking that may have happened here.

On my TR4 the original owner had the title with an incorrect VIN. In that case the 'L' had been entered as a '1' (one and a lower case L look similar on an old typewriter). I had him get a corrected title before we settled the sale but could have probably got together enough evidence for a later correction if I had had to.

 

[TR3driver]

But the engine number would not have had 7 digits, even if the 'E' was misread as an 'L'. Sounds to me like they used the body number or something. Or perhaps as happened with Charley, they just concatenated two numbers together.

The process apparently varies a great deal by state. Here in CA, when I had a similar problem with my previous TR3A, I just took the car to the DMV where they inspected the commission plate (after I showed them where it was) and issued a new title with the correct number. No muss, no fuss. I think it cost $8.

In fact, it might well be worth just trying again, with a different clerk. They don't always know all the law. After 20 years, it is your car, there is no rational reason to have you even try to contact the previous owner.

If that doesn't work, try researching the MN vehicle code yourself. That's what I wound up having to do to keep the black plates on my current TR3. The droids at the DMV didn't know anything about the section of the CA vehicle code that said I could keep them (my car was made before black plates came out, so not eligible for the Year Of Manufacture program). After considerable discussion and consulting with supervisors (one of whom claimed to be president of the Studebaker club, but still didn't know the law); I printed out the section from the code and showed it to them. They still didn't believe me (or the printout), but did allow me to fill out a "statement of facts" to send to Sacramento. 2 months later, I got the registration for the old plates.

 

[bnw]

In Michigan, you fill out a simple form from the DMV and have a local sheriff inspect the car for safety items like brake lights and turn signals and then he signs off on it. There has to be a way acceptable by the Minnesota DMV because you are not the only one something like this has happened to. Get a different clerk earlier in the day. These poor folks are over worked and under paid and usually have a rotten day going by late afternoon.