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TR4/4A tr4 head gasket recommendation?
- Thread starter derickson
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Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi,
There are three options: the original style "sandwich" gasket, solid copper, or shim steel.
Unless you are upping the compression significantly, I'd suggest using the original style "copper sandwich" type head gasket. These are pretty widely available from can be found in 83mm, 86mm and 87mm versions. Manufacturers are Payen, County and others. I don't think there is much, if any, difference from brand to brand. Usually the head gasket is part of a set of for the top end, but sometimes they can be found separately, as well. One possible source is British Parts Northwest (www.bpnorthwest.com).
Solid copper HGs are available in various thickness to change compression ratio, if that's what you need. These generally are a bit tougher to get to seal well and might need to be annealed before using. One source and additional info is at Gasket Works (www.headgasket.com).
The shim steel head gasket was originally listed to reduce compression in an engine, for use in countries where gas quality was poor. To reduce CR, it was used along with the original copper sandwich. Shim steel used to be available only in 83mm, needed to be opened up if used with other bores.
However, TR tuners & racers pretty quickly figured out the thin, shim steel head gasket could be used by itself, i.e. without the copper sandwich head gasket, to increase CR. It was particularly helpful that it was a "stock" item and might get past production class rules in racing. These days it's available in 83mm, 86mm and 87mm sizes, but is about the most expensive of the various head gaskets. British Frame & Engine has a pretty good price on it, last time I checked (www.britishframeandengine.com). The prices I've seen at some of the "big three" TR parts vendors, **** things should be gold plated or something.
Whatever you choose, be sure to trial fit the gasket and check that all the oiling and coolant holes match up well and note that on many there is often a "this side up" stamped into the gasket.
Hope this answers your questions.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
There are three options: the original style "sandwich" gasket, solid copper, or shim steel.
Unless you are upping the compression significantly, I'd suggest using the original style "copper sandwich" type head gasket. These are pretty widely available from can be found in 83mm, 86mm and 87mm versions. Manufacturers are Payen, County and others. I don't think there is much, if any, difference from brand to brand. Usually the head gasket is part of a set of for the top end, but sometimes they can be found separately, as well. One possible source is British Parts Northwest (www.bpnorthwest.com).
Solid copper HGs are available in various thickness to change compression ratio, if that's what you need. These generally are a bit tougher to get to seal well and might need to be annealed before using. One source and additional info is at Gasket Works (www.headgasket.com).
The shim steel head gasket was originally listed to reduce compression in an engine, for use in countries where gas quality was poor. To reduce CR, it was used along with the original copper sandwich. Shim steel used to be available only in 83mm, needed to be opened up if used with other bores.
However, TR tuners & racers pretty quickly figured out the thin, shim steel head gasket could be used by itself, i.e. without the copper sandwich head gasket, to increase CR. It was particularly helpful that it was a "stock" item and might get past production class rules in racing. These days it's available in 83mm, 86mm and 87mm sizes, but is about the most expensive of the various head gaskets. British Frame & Engine has a pretty good price on it, last time I checked (www.britishframeandengine.com). The prices I've seen at some of the "big three" TR parts vendors, **** things should be gold plated or something.
Whatever you choose, be sure to trial fit the gasket and check that all the oiling and coolant holes match up well and note that on many there is often a "this side up" stamped into the gasket.
Hope this answers your questions.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
Geo Hahn
Yoda
Offline
As usual, Alan pretty well covered it. I recently used a Payen set -- worked fine of course. I found that the whole set cost less than just the head gasket and manifold gaskets separately and who couldn't use an extra valve cover gasket.
I did spray a couple of coats of aluminum paint on each side to help it seal better.
I also use a lower torque than specified in the manual -- I did that 25 years ago because of a misprint in the edition of the Haynes Manual I have -- but it always sealed well so I used the same number again (only rpelaced that old gasket when I had the head off for a valve job last fall). 3,000 miles into this one & it is also just fine. But -- YMMV, so use the torque Standard Motors specified if in doubt.
I did spray a couple of coats of aluminum paint on each side to help it seal better.
I also use a lower torque than specified in the manual -- I did that 25 years ago because of a misprint in the edition of the Haynes Manual I have -- but it always sealed well so I used the same number again (only rpelaced that old gasket when I had the head off for a valve job last fall). 3,000 miles into this one & it is also just fine. But -- YMMV, so use the torque Standard Motors specified if in doubt.
Thanks, Alan. I very much appreciate the completeness of your reply. Do you recommend some sort of spray-on copper or the like with the sandwich copper gasket? This is my second attempt, since my first one leaked coolant slowly up one of the head bolts.
I tried BP Northwest, but they sell only sets, so I guess I'm back to Moss.
I tried BP Northwest, but they sell only sets, so I guess I'm back to Moss.
Offline
I have used both the "sandwich" copper gasket and the solid copper gasket. The solid was the latest, and I installed and torqued it with great care. It still leaked for weeks--until it finally sealed itself somehow or some way. I used a little BarsLeak, but I can't say that was the cure.
If I could go back in time, I'd put the sandwich in. The sealer spray, extra torque and re-torque, BarsLeak and other fixes all seemed like more than should've been necessary.
Just my opinion. Good luck.
If I could go back in time, I'd put the sandwich in. The sealer spray, extra torque and re-torque, BarsLeak and other fixes all seemed like more than should've been necessary.
Just my opinion. Good luck.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi again,
There are a number of spray on products, but on the standard type gasket silver or copper colored spray paint works almost as well as anything. On solid copper or shim steel I'd use a sealer that's specifically made for head gaskets.
Have you emailed BPNW to ask if they have just the head gasket, separate from the set? Even their set is just $7 more than the separate head gasket at Moss. For the few additional dollars, along with the head gasket I think you get a set of manifold gaskets, a valve cover gasket, and a set of thermostat housing gaskets. Might be well worth it if you tear or damage any of those while installing the new head gasket.
Torque can be tricky when reusing head studs. Be sure to check them all: While the head is off, spin a nut all the way down the length of the thread of each. If it binds at all an that can't be cured by cleaning the threads, the stud is stretched to the point it will be impossible to get accurate torque, and should be replaced. Next check the area right around the base of the studs, that the block hasn't cracked slightly or "belled up" right around the threaded hole from the pull of the stud when it's torqued. If it's belled up, that can keep the head gasket from compressing. Some rebuilders slightly chamfer or couintersink the area right around the head studs in the block, to reduce any chance of belling and provide a more even pull-down across all the studs.
Also be sure to put a bit of oil or anti-sieze on the threads of the stud so that your torque readings are as accurate as possible, follow the torque sequence and take it in several steps to full torque. Re-torque after the first time the engine is up to temp and cooled back down, and again after about 100 miles or so.
It shouldn't be necessary, but I'd have no conerns about using Bar's, if you wish. The stuff is OEM specified right from the factory in a number of cars, including Cadillac.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
There are a number of spray on products, but on the standard type gasket silver or copper colored spray paint works almost as well as anything. On solid copper or shim steel I'd use a sealer that's specifically made for head gaskets.
Have you emailed BPNW to ask if they have just the head gasket, separate from the set? Even their set is just $7 more than the separate head gasket at Moss. For the few additional dollars, along with the head gasket I think you get a set of manifold gaskets, a valve cover gasket, and a set of thermostat housing gaskets. Might be well worth it if you tear or damage any of those while installing the new head gasket.
Torque can be tricky when reusing head studs. Be sure to check them all: While the head is off, spin a nut all the way down the length of the thread of each. If it binds at all an that can't be cured by cleaning the threads, the stud is stretched to the point it will be impossible to get accurate torque, and should be replaced. Next check the area right around the base of the studs, that the block hasn't cracked slightly or "belled up" right around the threaded hole from the pull of the stud when it's torqued. If it's belled up, that can keep the head gasket from compressing. Some rebuilders slightly chamfer or couintersink the area right around the head studs in the block, to reduce any chance of belling and provide a more even pull-down across all the studs.
Also be sure to put a bit of oil or anti-sieze on the threads of the stud so that your torque readings are as accurate as possible, follow the torque sequence and take it in several steps to full torque. Re-torque after the first time the engine is up to temp and cooled back down, and again after about 100 miles or so.
It shouldn't be necessary, but I'd have no conerns about using Bar's, if you wish. The stuff is OEM specified right from the factory in a number of cars, including Cadillac.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
trfourtune
Jedi Knight
Offline
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif but not about bars leak. it coats the inside of your cooling system and creates a barrier for less heat transfer. most tr's run hot to begin with so i wouldn't do it on our cars.
rob /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/square.gif
rob /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/square.gif
trfourtune
Jedi Knight
Offline
if you want a stock payen one i have a brand new one sitting on the shelf that i won't be using $20.00 US and its yours (plus shipping). since i'm going to 89mm and modified head and possibly slight cylinder wall relief for intake valve, i need a solid head gasket.
rob
rob
I just received my new Payen sandwich copper head gasket. I've examined the head studs- they all look fine, except the one which was leaking has a much rougher-looking shaft than the others. The threads are fine. I cleaned it up with scotch-brite (after protecting the block), and it looks ok. It appears that some of the crud on that stud got scraped off as I installed the head last time and sat on the head gasket, creating a small leak path.
Question: which way is up for the new head gasket? Does it matter? I am planning to spray paint it as recommended.
Thanks again.
Question: which way is up for the new head gasket? Does it matter? I am planning to spray paint it as recommended.
Thanks again.