TR4/4A TR4 floor jacking holes... fact or fiction?

[SpannerMan]

Hi all - I have read in more than one place that the holes in the floors of the TR6 - the ones that are blanked by the big rubber plugs - are left over from the days of the TR4 ladder frame design, when they were used as jacking holes. Try as I might, I can't picture how that would work. You want the jack to go under the frame- why would you be trying to put pressure on anything on the other side of the floor - as seen from the ground, that is. Is it instead the case that they lifted the car during assembly by putting a chain or such through those holes and onto the chassis? That doesn't sound right - by the time the chassis meets the body it would be rolling. Or drain holes in case of flooding?!

Hopefully someone can fill me in!... Thanks, Pete

 

[michalotti_tr]

This is true Pete - on the original TR4 frame there was a 'hardpoint' on the frame right at the hole location - the purpose was to allow you to jack the car up before getting out if it was raining (or so I'm told)

 

[swift6]

Yes that is true. That is what those holes were for on earlier TR's. The jack was not used on the floor boards but on the frame, as you surmised it should be. Earlier TR frames had pieces on the frame next to these holes to specifically catch the ealier style jacks. With the earlier style jack, you could pass the jack through the hole, catch the frame and raise the car while you sat inside.

I actually tried this once on an earlier TR just to see what it was like. It became clear why they went to the scissor jack in the TR6. It's quicker and easier to use than the screw jack supplied with earlier cars.

You have to keep in mind that TR's were built to a price point and they would not change tooling unless absolutely necessary. Which is why TR6 floor boards still have those holes. They also make good drain plugs for when the cockpit gets flooded. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

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[Alan_Myers]

As a TR4 owner I can assure you it's not a myth and it works. There is a bracket welded to the inner wall of the main frame that the jack slips into. The jack lifts the entire side of the car. A scissors jack might be a bit more efficient, but it sure is nice to lift the car from inside the cockpit on a rainy day! The ratcheting handle is pretty neat, too. All in all, it makes for a more compact jack/handle, too.

TR4A and later don't have the brackets welded to the frame for the early-style jack, so can't use it. But the holes in the floor were still there all the way through the end of TR6 production. Yes, I think they were left there to facilitate draining the cockpit if the car gets caught in a downpoor with the top down. There are a couple other smaller rubber-plugged holes in the floor that would be useful drains, too, if needed.

A couple other related notes: The rear outriggers on TR4A/250/5/6 are a bit different, too. They use 3 attachment bolts in a triangular pattern, rather than the 4 bolts in a rectangular arrangement used on TR4 (which is the same as the front outrigger attachment on all TR4 thru TR6). All replacement floor panels available today are TR4A & later-style and need to be modified slightly to work on earlier cars, if 4-bolt attachment is wanted. Also, on TR4 the long brake pipe that travels along the RH frame rail loops around the jack hole on that side, so that it doesn't get pinched when using the original jack to lift the car.

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[SpannerMan]

Well, thanks everyone for letting me know! Putting the jack down through the floor wasn't something I had thought of, I must say... I can see the advantage of not having to roll around on the ground to put the jack under the car in the right place. Seems like the effort and load in the jack would get pretty high - lifting the whole side rather than a corner. As for not getting wet, anything helps! Centerlock wheels would be a plus too, for that matter!... Luckily it isn't such an issue for latter day fair-weather drivers like myself. Thanks again all! Pete

 

[Banjo]

The old screw jacks were effective torque amplifiers. It really diden't take all that much effort to lift the whole side, but those jacks were very dangerous, If you diden't get the tab locked into the frame bracket good, or if there was a weakness to the frame or the tab on the jack, the whole thing could easily come crashing down (I've personally seen it happen, fortunatly with the wheels still in place)
I would only use that jack for show, or extreme emergencies. Otherwise pick up a good scissors jack at the local salvage yard and stow it in the boot.
P.S. My TR2 has metal plugs in these holes in the floor.

 

[DonP]

In "theory" yes, you could jack the car up while still inside.

I've owned a TR-3B (same frame, same jack hole etc.) since 1968 and have had more than my share of flats by the side of the road and loose exhaust systems that needed an expedient coat hanger repair to get back on the road.

The jack was a nice idea in theory, probably created by a bunch of well meaning design engineers in a nice, warm, dry research & development center with a concrete floor I bet.

It did work, under the right conditions anyway. But you really had to get out and check under the car to be sure you had the jack fully engaged on the little welded on bracket.

But the reality was you needed a pretty good angle to crank the jack and you would have a hard time getting the torque on that ratcheting handle with it held between your knees. Besides, without getting out and blocking the wheels you stand a good chance of it rolling right off the jack when you step out to loosen the wheels. Anyway you have to break the studs loose before you get the wheel off the ground, so no matter how you slice it you're gonna get wet and dirty.

Other obstacles were that the jack was usually in the spare tire hole on a TR-3 and was quickly rusted into being useless by the time you needed it. Remember back then this was everyday transportation for some of us, not a weekend car.

Plus the footprint on that darn jack was about the size of a silver dollar and turning the handle by the side of the road usually meant jacking a nice neat hole in the mud. As a result I carried a piece fo scrap 2 x 6 everywhere I went to put under the jack and another two to block the wheels.

I bought a cheap scissor jack as soon as I could afford it. It's still in the trunk.

My old jack and ratchet handle is now totally refinished and repainted and looks great in a tool kit roll.

(The better, and officially frowned on, use for the hole in the floor was as a traveling rest room. When driving to Northern Wisconsin on fishing trips, my brother and I, with the aid of a piece of radiator hose, could relieve ourselves with out stopping. True Story: Once, outside Rice Lake, we actually had a nice man pull up to us and let us know our radiator seemed to be leaking. Didn't have the heart to say, "Nope, for a change it's actually not the radiator that's my brother leaking.")

 

[Alan_Myers]

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...so no matter how you slice it you're gonna get wet and dirty.

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Quite true... unless you learn to dodge raindrops! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

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Other obstacles were that the jack...was quickly rusted into being useless by the time you needed it.

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Also quite true... Worked out a little better stored in the TR4 "boot", though.

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Plus the footprint on that darn jack was about the size of a silver dollar and... usually meant jacking a nice neat hole in the mud. I bought a cheap scissor jack as soon as I could afford it. It's still in the trunk.

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True again, and "me too" on the scissors jack.

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My old jack and ratchet handle is now totally refinished and repainted and looks great in a tool kit roll.

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Ultimately, probably the best place for it and a "display piece" is the best use!

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(The better, and officially frowned on, use for the hole in the floor was as a traveling rest room...

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Now THAT'S something I'd not thought of! Hilarious! Hmmmm, I bet this was a key reason TRs were such popular and successful rally cars, too. Imagine those rallyists leaving a trail of urine for their competitors to spin out on... Not to mention the time saved by not having to make a "pit stop". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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[Andrew Mace]

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(The better, and officially frowned on, use for the hole in the floor was as a traveling rest room...

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Now THAT'S something I'd not thought of! Hilarious! Hmmmm, I bet this was a key reason TRs were such popular and successful rally cars, too. Imagine those rallyists leaving a trail of urine for their competitors to spin out on... Not to mention the time saved by not having to make a "pit stop". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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I read somewhere that Ken Richardson ("Father" of the TR series) tried something like this on one of the Works Rallye Cars. Apparently, airflow under the car was such that it tended to blow the, er, liquids back into the car. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

 

[Banjo]

"Travelling restroom" That never crossed my mind!
I'll think twice befor working under a well used TR again.
That's funny!

 

[TRTEL]

Like Don P. I've owned my 3 since '68. When I returned from my year long sabbatical courtesy of Uncle S. in Jan '71, my brother managed to show up just in time with my car for me to head out to Fort Carson, CO from St. Louis. Not having driven any kind of vehicle for 12 months, much less a TR3, left me somewhat lacking in anticipatory skills for road hazards. So while cresting a hill in far western Kansas, in a blizzard, I see that the completely ice covered interstate suddenly, slightly turns to the left. As I try to follow the road the car finally allows physics to take control. The last thing I remember seeing whiz by (backwards of course) was some armco inches from the right hand side window at about forty. Couldn't get out the driver's side because the snow had piled up about two feet deep (and probably kept me from flipping over). Surveyed my predicament and immediately thought of the tire chains a good friend with a VW bug had just given me, because he had never needed them. After digging for an eternity in the densely packed snow with an ice scraper, I realized that I would still have to jack up the car. Crawled back into drivers seat, popped out the floor plug to find snow packed under the floor pan. Tried using the jack, but it ran out of travel first. At that point I had my great insight. Pulled off a hubcap, and started digging under the drivers door (it also made a much better shovel), shoved it under the car and presto a TR jack snow shoe. Incredibly it worked just enough to get the chain under the tire and locked on. The uphill side was a comparative piece of cake. Meanwhile, the state patrol followed my tracks off the road, found me and watched in disbelief as the car managed to actually make it back up the steep incline and onto the pavement. Lost the hubcap in the snow, but it was undoubtedly somewhat the worse for wear. So somewhere along I70 near Goodland KS, there is a very rusty artifact.
Tom Lains

 

[Geo Hahn]

I'll attest to the efficacy of the original jack... have used one many times w/o a problem. A scissors jack is an alternative but be sure yours will fit under the frame when the tire is flat... there isn't a lot of room there which may be one reason they went with the thru the floor method.