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I'm a couple of days away from putting the rebuilt engine back in my TR3, and in addition to a new clutch, I purchased a throwout bearing from Moss. It's a Green Bearing and it is a piece of garbage. You can feel the bearing grind simply turning it with your fingers. Who makes a good bearing, and where can I get one?
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TR2/3/3A TR3 throwout bearing
- Thread starter markctr3
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Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi,
I'm afraid the Gunst bearing won't fit TR3, unless your car has been modified to use the later TR4A diaphragm clutch. Gunst only work with that later type clutch.
It's been a while since I used the earlier type clutch, so I don't know what T.O. bearings are currently avail. for TR4 and earlier. Hope someone else has a suggestion.
I seem to recall most were pretty reliable, so long as they are installed correctly. You can't just use a vise to press the T.O. onto the carrier. The trick is to rotate the bearing at the same time it's being pressed onto the carrier. TRF sells a tool to help, or they offer T.O.s pre-installed on carriers.
I'm afraid the Gunst bearing won't fit TR3, unless your car has been modified to use the later TR4A diaphragm clutch. Gunst only work with that later type clutch.
It's been a while since I used the earlier type clutch, so I don't know what T.O. bearings are currently avail. for TR4 and earlier. Hope someone else has a suggestion.
I seem to recall most were pretty reliable, so long as they are installed correctly. You can't just use a vise to press the T.O. onto the carrier. The trick is to rotate the bearing at the same time it's being pressed onto the carrier. TRF sells a tool to help, or they offer T.O.s pre-installed on carriers.
BritBox
Jedi Hopeful
Offline
Hi,
I don't have experience with the TR3 bearing, but on the TR250 and TR6 you can put the carrier in your freezer for a few hours. Next, place the bearing on a 60W lightbulb and let it get nice and warm. Carrier contracts, bearing expands. You should be able to slide the bearing right over the carrier without pounding on anything, it worked great for me.
HTH,
I don't have experience with the TR3 bearing, but on the TR250 and TR6 you can put the carrier in your freezer for a few hours. Next, place the bearing on a 60W lightbulb and let it get nice and warm. Carrier contracts, bearing expands. You should be able to slide the bearing right over the carrier without pounding on anything, it worked great for me.
HTH,
Hi Mark I feel your pain perhaps that Green bearing is not ripe yet. Anyways I will be interested what you find out because I plan to get a 3piece kit from one of the venders. The one I put in my drive is about 15years old and I do not remember the brand name. I do have an old one that still looks good and I will make note of the name this week. Have you tried British parts Northwest? Just do a Google or Yahoo search and they will come up. I bought a clutch master from them last week and was very impressed. They actually called me at home and left their number and were very knowledgeable, plus I got it cheap and it came the NEXT day. I noticed they had clutch kits on their web page; however, I did not see a throw out bearing for a tr3. I bet they have one; I think if you email them they will call.
George
George
I talked with a guy up in Stuart, FL who is a TR3 guru, and one of the most accomodating guys I've come across. He told me that the Green Bearings are notorious for faliure, so I'm going to put the old one back in the car for now. I would like to convert it to a TR4 clutch and an alloy flywheel in the near future. I was told that that combo would save about 20 lbs....which is quite a bit of rotating mass. Hopefully the old bearing will hold out until then.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
I talked with a guy up in Stuart, FL who is a TR3 guru, and one of the most accomodating guys I've come across.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi again,
You might also give Ken Gillanders a call or send him an email. He's been racing and building TRs since he bought his TR2 in 1955. He can probably give you good advice, might sell a high quality T.O. bearing himself. His website is www.britishframeandengine.com
Ken also loves to chat about TRs and will give you an earful of ideas!
[ QUOTE ]
I would like to convert it to a TR4 clutch and an alloy flywheel in the near future. I was told that that combo would save about 20 lbs....which is quite a bit of rotating mass. Hopefully the old bearing will hold out until then.
[/ QUOTE ]
If your goal is a lighter setup, I think you will want to go to a TR4A flywheel and clutch. The TR4's setup is about the same as you already have. Some TR3 use a shrink-on ring gear, while later TR3 and TR4 use a bolt-on ring gear, but that's about the only difference.
The TR4A diaphragm clutch and its pressure plate are slightly smaller diameter and lighter weight. It uses a different bolt circle, so either your existing flywheel needs to be drilled and tapped to accommodate it, or you'll need a TR4A/later flywheel.
Converting to the later, TR4A clutch and flywheel also has some issues with the T.O. bearing, the carrier and the front cover of the gearbox. All these are different size. The T.O. bearing is a different diameter, length and shape, too. But, it makes it possible to fit a Gunst bearing, if you wish. These are only available for use on the later, diaphragm clutch original to TR4A/250/5/6.
There is a wider variety of parts available for TR4A/250/5/6 clutch assembly, from more manufacturers and generally at a lower cost than the earlier setup. I suppose that makes sense since so many more of the later cars were built and still remain on the road. It gives you more choices.
There were also some problems with the diaphragm clutch, you probably know from reading about TR6 clutch issues. But many of these can be avoided by continuing to use TR3/TR4-style cross shaft and cross shaft bushings (greasable) and TR3/TR4 slave cylinder setup (adjustable with an external return spring). The earlier stuff here simply works better. Some other things, like locating dowels to best align the bellhousing to the engine that were lacking from TR250/5/6, are already on your car. Overall, the 4-cylinder cars didn't have nearly as many clutch issues, even after the switch to a diaphragm clutch. Most of those problems came later with the 6-cylinder cars and are most likely a combination of factors: such as modifications to make pedal effort easier and reduce service requirements.
If you decide to go to a diaphragm type clutch, do some research before you buy and be sure what you are getting. There have been a lot of pressure plates sold that simply have way too heavy spring tension, making for short-lived T.O. bearings. Essentially what happened is some heavier sprung pressure plates for Volvo etc. were being sold for use in TRs.
Better replacements are now available. Knowledgeable vendors like TRF can help you find these, will sell you something pretty close to the original spring pressure (but still a little stronger than original). I think the Borg & Beck, for example, use color coded paint dots to differentiate between the slightly heavier and the much heavier tension plates, but I don't recall the details.
Regarding the flywheel, there are a couple schools of thought about lightening. Switching to alloy is one route. There are a couple concerns here. One is that there really should be additional attaching bolts added, which means modifying the tail of the crankshaft as well. If only the original 4 bolts are used, the holes in the aluminum flywheel tend to elongate over time and the flywheel can work loose. That's not something you want to have happen!
Another concern is that there have to be some sort of steel facings in an aluminum flywheel, for the clutch disk to ride against. Aluminum and steel have different heat expansion characteristics, so the multi-piece flywheel *might* cause problems, over time. If nothing else, it adds complexity and potential for problems.
An alternative approach is to lighten the steel flywheel itself, by machining off material in key places. There are various methods used for lightening, giving results from modest to radical. An advantage is that it choose how much to have it lightened, could take a moderate approach so that the car still has good street manners, but enough to perk up acceleration. Also, the flywheel is still a one-piece unit and all one type of material, with no heat expansion issues. Finally, lightening can focus on the periphery, where it does the most good, retaining thickness in the center, near the fastenings at the crankshaft, for strength. A downside to lightening the old flywheel is just that, it's old and metal can fatigue. Ideally, it should be crack detected to be sure it's safe and usable.
I must admit, I installed an aluminum flywheel on my TR4, before I became aware of the alternatives and advantages/disadvantages of each. The car isn't back on the road yet, so I can't give you a running report. And I haven't yet doubled up the fasteners on the crankshaft, but I will! Test fitting it on the crankshaft showed some problems. The machining fell short and one of the original dowels didn't line up very well.
The cost of an alloy replacement or machining a steel flywheel is roughly the same.
I talked with a guy up in Stuart, FL who is a TR3 guru, and one of the most accomodating guys I've come across.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi again,
You might also give Ken Gillanders a call or send him an email. He's been racing and building TRs since he bought his TR2 in 1955. He can probably give you good advice, might sell a high quality T.O. bearing himself. His website is www.britishframeandengine.com
Ken also loves to chat about TRs and will give you an earful of ideas!
[ QUOTE ]
I would like to convert it to a TR4 clutch and an alloy flywheel in the near future. I was told that that combo would save about 20 lbs....which is quite a bit of rotating mass. Hopefully the old bearing will hold out until then.
[/ QUOTE ]
If your goal is a lighter setup, I think you will want to go to a TR4A flywheel and clutch. The TR4's setup is about the same as you already have. Some TR3 use a shrink-on ring gear, while later TR3 and TR4 use a bolt-on ring gear, but that's about the only difference.
The TR4A diaphragm clutch and its pressure plate are slightly smaller diameter and lighter weight. It uses a different bolt circle, so either your existing flywheel needs to be drilled and tapped to accommodate it, or you'll need a TR4A/later flywheel.
Converting to the later, TR4A clutch and flywheel also has some issues with the T.O. bearing, the carrier and the front cover of the gearbox. All these are different size. The T.O. bearing is a different diameter, length and shape, too. But, it makes it possible to fit a Gunst bearing, if you wish. These are only available for use on the later, diaphragm clutch original to TR4A/250/5/6.
There is a wider variety of parts available for TR4A/250/5/6 clutch assembly, from more manufacturers and generally at a lower cost than the earlier setup. I suppose that makes sense since so many more of the later cars were built and still remain on the road. It gives you more choices.
There were also some problems with the diaphragm clutch, you probably know from reading about TR6 clutch issues. But many of these can be avoided by continuing to use TR3/TR4-style cross shaft and cross shaft bushings (greasable) and TR3/TR4 slave cylinder setup (adjustable with an external return spring). The earlier stuff here simply works better. Some other things, like locating dowels to best align the bellhousing to the engine that were lacking from TR250/5/6, are already on your car. Overall, the 4-cylinder cars didn't have nearly as many clutch issues, even after the switch to a diaphragm clutch. Most of those problems came later with the 6-cylinder cars and are most likely a combination of factors: such as modifications to make pedal effort easier and reduce service requirements.
If you decide to go to a diaphragm type clutch, do some research before you buy and be sure what you are getting. There have been a lot of pressure plates sold that simply have way too heavy spring tension, making for short-lived T.O. bearings. Essentially what happened is some heavier sprung pressure plates for Volvo etc. were being sold for use in TRs.
Better replacements are now available. Knowledgeable vendors like TRF can help you find these, will sell you something pretty close to the original spring pressure (but still a little stronger than original). I think the Borg & Beck, for example, use color coded paint dots to differentiate between the slightly heavier and the much heavier tension plates, but I don't recall the details.
Regarding the flywheel, there are a couple schools of thought about lightening. Switching to alloy is one route. There are a couple concerns here. One is that there really should be additional attaching bolts added, which means modifying the tail of the crankshaft as well. If only the original 4 bolts are used, the holes in the aluminum flywheel tend to elongate over time and the flywheel can work loose. That's not something you want to have happen!
Another concern is that there have to be some sort of steel facings in an aluminum flywheel, for the clutch disk to ride against. Aluminum and steel have different heat expansion characteristics, so the multi-piece flywheel *might* cause problems, over time. If nothing else, it adds complexity and potential for problems.
An alternative approach is to lighten the steel flywheel itself, by machining off material in key places. There are various methods used for lightening, giving results from modest to radical. An advantage is that it choose how much to have it lightened, could take a moderate approach so that the car still has good street manners, but enough to perk up acceleration. Also, the flywheel is still a one-piece unit and all one type of material, with no heat expansion issues. Finally, lightening can focus on the periphery, where it does the most good, retaining thickness in the center, near the fastenings at the crankshaft, for strength. A downside to lightening the old flywheel is just that, it's old and metal can fatigue. Ideally, it should be crack detected to be sure it's safe and usable.
I must admit, I installed an aluminum flywheel on my TR4, before I became aware of the alternatives and advantages/disadvantages of each. The car isn't back on the road yet, so I can't give you a running report. And I haven't yet doubled up the fasteners on the crankshaft, but I will! Test fitting it on the crankshaft showed some problems. The machining fell short and one of the original dowels didn't line up very well.
The cost of an alloy replacement or machining a steel flywheel is roughly the same.
Alan,
I would like to thank you for the time you spent offering your knowledge. You have given me quite a bit of very useful information and insights. This is exactly what i had hoped for in joining the British Car Forum! I'm the kind of guy that asks everybody questions...I don't care what it is, or what they're doing--I HAVE to learn. I can only hope that there will come a time when I can help someone with a question. Unfortunately, I'm still on the bottom half of the learning curve.
Thanks again!
I would like to thank you for the time you spent offering your knowledge. You have given me quite a bit of very useful information and insights. This is exactly what i had hoped for in joining the British Car Forum! I'm the kind of guy that asks everybody questions...I don't care what it is, or what they're doing--I HAVE to learn. I can only hope that there will come a time when I can help someone with a question. Unfortunately, I'm still on the bottom half of the learning curve.
Thanks again!
G
Guest
Guest
Guest
Offline
Alan,
I'm curious rather than nit picking - Aren't the flywheels on the 3s cast iron rather than steel? I know they are on the 6. In fact at least one place in the UK sells a steel replacement (for about $650 delivered) for them as an alternative to the aluminium/steel-faced ones more readily available here.
I'm curious rather than nit picking - Aren't the flywheels on the 3s cast iron rather than steel? I know they are on the 6. In fact at least one place in the UK sells a steel replacement (for about $650 delivered) for them as an alternative to the aluminium/steel-faced ones more readily available here.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
Aren't the flywheels on the 3s cast iron rather than steel? ... In fact at least one place in the UK sells a steel replacement (for about $650 delivered)...
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi again,
Yes, you're right. The stock flywheels on TR2 through TR6 are cast iron, and not steel as I said in my earlier post.
Those pricey, billet steel flywheels might be something folks regularly hitting 7000-8000 rpm should consider. But, the rest of us can likely get by fine with a modified cast iron or alloy flywheel!
Wow! Peter, please ask your machine shop if they'd like more business from around the country. $50 is a bargain price, even considering shipping there and back. I don't think I could get the same work done for less than $150 here in N. Calif.
It's been several years since I bought the alloy flywheel now on my TR4, but I seem to recall it cost around $250 at the time. I'll take your word that they are around $400 now, but it might be worth shopping around.
Note that I also strongly recommended that the stock flywheel be crack-detected for safety before any machining is done. That will add some additional cost, hard to say exactly how much because different shops use different methods, but I'd guesstimate $50 or more.
Also, if converting a TR2/3/4 to accommodate the later diaphragm clutch, different mounting holes will need to be precisely drilled and tapped at some additional cost, maybe another $50 or more. Your TR4A and later flywheels wouldn't need this work and expense.
Adding these items up is why I said cost would end up *roughly* the same, buying a new alloy flywheel vs having an original one modified.
I do like that you have more control over the amount of lightening done, if having one modified, rather than buying an alloy (or billet steel) flywheel.
Aren't the flywheels on the 3s cast iron rather than steel? ... In fact at least one place in the UK sells a steel replacement (for about $650 delivered)...
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi again,
Yes, you're right. The stock flywheels on TR2 through TR6 are cast iron, and not steel as I said in my earlier post.
Those pricey, billet steel flywheels might be something folks regularly hitting 7000-8000 rpm should consider. But, the rest of us can likely get by fine with a modified cast iron or alloy flywheel!
Wow! Peter, please ask your machine shop if they'd like more business from around the country. $50 is a bargain price, even considering shipping there and back. I don't think I could get the same work done for less than $150 here in N. Calif.
It's been several years since I bought the alloy flywheel now on my TR4, but I seem to recall it cost around $250 at the time. I'll take your word that they are around $400 now, but it might be worth shopping around.
Note that I also strongly recommended that the stock flywheel be crack-detected for safety before any machining is done. That will add some additional cost, hard to say exactly how much because different shops use different methods, but I'd guesstimate $50 or more.
Also, if converting a TR2/3/4 to accommodate the later diaphragm clutch, different mounting holes will need to be precisely drilled and tapped at some additional cost, maybe another $50 or more. Your TR4A and later flywheels wouldn't need this work and expense.
Adding these items up is why I said cost would end up *roughly* the same, buying a new alloy flywheel vs having an original one modified.
I do like that you have more control over the amount of lightening done, if having one modified, rather than buying an alloy (or billet steel) flywheel.