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TR2/3/3A TR3 steering/ suspension

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SeanTR3

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I took the TR3 in for an inspection and it did not pass due to a worn idler arm and a leaking steering box.

Moss sells some repair items including seals and I am trying to figure out what to order. The steering box looks like it has a top gasket, lower bushing, and an oil seal. Is that all for the steering box?

For the idler arm it does not look like there is a bushing on the inside of the idler bracket. I guess I just replace the bracket. On my 1997 truck there were bushings inside the idler arm that could be replaced to tighten up the slack. I don't see any bushings on the Moss part. Am I missing something here? Is it worth replacing the ball joints at the same time as the idler arm to make sure I don't miss anything that is contributing to the loose steering?

I read about the improved steering box modification, but I would rather just replace the original parts with like items.

Thanks for any advice.

Sean
 
The idler arm and bracket shown as items #65 and #66 on the Moss Motors page for the steering could be the problem. They pretty much go together as a unit, but only by taking things apart will you know for sure which piece you need, or whether both are required. Also, if you look at item #60, called the silentbloc, these wear and make for a lot of slop. There are two of them...one at the postition in the drawing, and the other at the other end of the link where it attaches to the idler arm. Maybe that's where the slop is.
 
Hi yes definitely-- look into replacing the silent blocks I am beating they are bad, the tie rod ends also. If you want that thing to handle like a new car Replacing suspension parts is a big job. If you are kinda warming up to it that is cool too. The steering box has four points that it could be leaking from. First, clean the whole steering box with something like 409 spray (maybe pull out the driver’s side horn for access) then check the fluid and ascertain how quickly it looses fluid. It might not be a big deal; these cars are very territorial and spray. Starting with the easiest problem to correct:

The brass nut that holds the brass compression olive seal in place might be loose, you might just have to tighten that. If bad, that could let about half the fluid run out.

The top gasket might be leaking which is not a big deal you might just be able to tight that also.

The end plate that holds in the shim pack could be leaking. The shims set the float for the worm gear, so if it is leaking there read up on it.

If it is leaking at the bottom seal, you will have to remove the unit to replace the seal, (unless you are cleverer than me) BUT, again they almost always leak something. So if it is not too bad, leave it.


In all theses cases and depending the desired condition of the vehicle, there is the alternative to switch from 90 gear oil to wheel bearing grease. It does work, and will not leak; however it is not the recommended fluid.

George
 
I jacked the car up this afternoon and looked over everything. The idler arm and silentblocs are shot. The ball joints actually feel tight so I am going to leave them alone for now. I called Moss and ordered a bunch of parts: upper gasket and lower seals for the steering box, new idler arm, silentblocs, brake caliper rebuild kit, and some other small parts.

I hope to take care of the major problems so the car will drive safely and pass inspection.

George, I'll keep in mind what you suggest about the steering box. I may get lucky and be able to tighten up some of the nuts. One things is sure about these cars, they like to vibrate everything loose as if they intend to shed parts they don't like.

I was hoping to get through the inspection with ease, but no such luck. The car sat for 6 years and was not driven so I am not surprised that the fluids worked their way past the seals. At least LBCs are popular enough that companies still offer a good selection of parts for them.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If it is leaking at the bottom seal, you will have to remove the unit to replace the seal, (unless you are cleverer than me) BUT, again they almost always leak something. So if it is not too bad, leave it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine had a small but persistent leak there. I added a small amount of that 'engine oil stop leak' magic potion. It is about the same weight as 90 wt gear oil and has a chemical that swells seals a bit. It stopped the leak and it has not returned. Use your own judgement whether this is an okay thing to do.
 
Hi Sean sounds good. Moss is a good supplier, but shop around. I bought the last brake rebuild kits from National auto which is basically now Baxter’s auto on the West coast for 3 bucks a side. Anyways, Moss does seem to be the Gold standard. When you put on new tie rod ends and silent blocks and a new idler arm, you will really feel the difference. If you take the top cover off the steering box Do Not Quickly move the worm gear by twisting tires because the steering shaft will pop up out of the worm grove. This is very problematic because the worm gear is extremely hard steel and might chip. It will. So be careful moving the steering with the cover off because the pitman arm as it travels will want to travel up to the bottom of the box allowing the shaft to lift out!!!.

George
 
Is there a good tool for removing the silentblocs? I removed the idler arm and am ready to put the new one on, but I can't remove the old silentbloc. I have a tie rod end puller, but it is too large to fit and so is a pitman arm separator. I can't quite get the leverage to hit the stud from below while holding a large socket over the top so it will pop loose? Any ideas?
 
I was able to get a puller around the silentbloc and worked the center bolt out. The rubber bushing eventually came out, but the outer sleeve is stuck. I am currently trying to saw through it carefully to split it and then pry it out.
 
I've been trying to get the tie rod end loose from the relay rod and no luck. A tie rod separator just starts to rip the grease boot and I can't find a puller small enough to get in there. Someone has to have done this on their Triumph. What tool did you use for this?

Since the metal sleeve is so hard to remove from the relay rod I figured I would detach it from the tie rod ends and take it to a workbench so I could get at the silentbloc sleeves.

If no-one knows, then the first person to show up here with $2000 gets a used '58 TR3 with the steering torn apart.

I did some internet searching and found a tool called a ball joint lifter. It looks like it comes in from the side of the bolt instead of straight on. Now I've got to find one locally.
 
The easiest way to get tapered joints (tie rods, ball joints, etc.) apart is to whack the side of the part that encircles the tapered fitting (the part you took the nut off) with a heavy hammer. In your case, the relay rod where it wraps around the tie rod is what you're going to hit. If possible, it's best to back up the other side from where you are whacking with another hammer. A couple of nice hard blows and the joint will seperate easily. I've been doing it this way for forty years and have never failed to release a joint, and it has never caused any damage. No special tools needed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

Edit: It might be easier for you to seperate the OUTER tie rods from the spindle end and remove the rod with everything attached.
 
Re: TR3 steering/ suspension:Rack and Pinion

Greetings from the NorthLeftCoast!
I am just starting the rebuild (with my 14 year old son) of a '57 TR-3 that a drove in University ('70's). I was on the web last night as saw that there is a compnay on the other coast that has a bolt in Rack and Pinion conversion. While not original, the steering has always been a weak point of a great car. anyone know of a suitable donor car for a rack transplant?
Thanks,
ap
 
Re: TR3 steering/ suspension:Rack and Pinion

I installed parts of the above referenced B.A.R. R&P conversion in my 56 TR3. It's a nice kit, engineered well.

Unfortunately, I can't give you a before and after comparison. My car was a basket case and my first drive in it was after I put the R&P in. Others have said that it's like adding power steering to your TR3. On the other hand, I've heard that rebuilding the stock TR3 steering box makes a world of difference too.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think the rack in the kit is from a TR4/6. Although I've never measured, ISTR that the TR4/6 rack is too wide for a TR3.
 
Hi Sean, 2000 bucks sounds good, I will be there as quick as I can. I usually take the silent blocks in and have them pressed at a machine shop. However, I have seen people just drive them in with a hammer. I am a carpenter and I do not do it that way. I think they might just end up a little crooked and it seems to shorten the life of the silent block In addition, I have seen people use just the tapered center piece and a piece of rubber heater hose to kinda rebuild the old one. I am rebuilding one now that was done that way, and Oddly enough it actually look like it might work. Anyways, yes the best way to separate the two pieces is just to smack them with like a two pound hammer. For an abstract example, if you had one of the rear shocks off with the connecting link still in place. You would hold the shock in one hand and then simply smack the SIDE of the hole where the two connect. It sounds like magic, but they just fall away from each other because of the harmonic vibration caused by the smack. It really is kind of amazing when you see it happen, especially after you have fought it for sometime. Hail to the Stock Roadsters. You will probably have to pickle bar off (the two foot straight bar that holds the silent blocks) from the pitman arm. But you should be able to vibrate the others loose.

George
 
I finally had success removing the ball joints. Now I have the steering arm off and the old silentblocs removed. I am trying to fit the new silentblocs and one will slid through the opening with ease in either direction while the other feels like it will press in easily. Are they supposed to be really loose when they are installed? People have mentioned pressing them in so I don't think they should be this loose.

The spec on the silentbloc bushing should be .875
The new ones are measuring .866 and .852
The smaller one-.852 falls through the hole in the rod and I don't think it will work. I'm waiting to hear from a Moss Tech who is going to measure some of their in-stock parts to see what the sizes are. Harry at Moss pulled some of the silentblocs and measured them. He found several that were to small so they will have to go through the whole lot and keep the proper ones.

Thanks again.
 
They are a press fit. I pressed them in using a socket and a vise. I suppose they could be whacked in with a hammer, but the vise worked well for me. I hope Moss comes up with some that will be correct. I've been dealing with Moss for the last year during my TR3 resto, and so far, everything I've gotten from them has fit fine, and the quality seems good. I'm sure they'll straighten this out for you.

Anyway, was it the hammer whacking that got the tapered joints apart?? The first time I saw that trick done, my mouth dropped to the ground. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Yes, it was the hammers that got the joints apart. I used two small sledge hammers and a 4x4 piece of lumber to rest one of the hammers on. I set the 4x4 on the ground vertically under the joint and wedged one hammer between the 4x4 and the joint. Then I whacked the other side of the joint with the other hammer. One side came free and I went over to the other side and had it off in less than 10 minutes.

The technique works well, and it takes a little thought to get over the fact that you are hitting an old car part with such force. I try to always keep the car's age in mind when I work on it and at first it seemed too risky to start pounding on the steering rod. I always thought it was a mechanics joke when I heard people say...if it doesn't come off, get a bigger hammer. Now I know there is some truth to this.

I agree with pressing the new silentbloc in with a vise and a socket. Nice and smooth and it should go in just fine. I assume it goes in without any grease since the metal needs to seat to keep it from spinning when the bottom nut is tightened.

Thanks for all the help. It is good to have a resource like this to go to.

Since I had some down time I took one front brake caliper off and I'll rebuild it tomorrow. The car should be in good shape when the work is all done.

Maybe then we'll be able to convince my Dad to sell it.
 
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