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TR2/3/3A TR3 Starter issues

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prb51

prb51

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Well the old bull nose starter gave up the ghost downtown today. Small town so saw a friend and got the push I needed to get home.
I had a new Nippondenso standing by (the old starter had been making weird noises for about a year but worked so thought I'd see how long it would last).
Anyway, my first starter replacement without removing the tranny tunnel.
Had to remove the rear air filter and disconnect the choke cable and choke connecting rod to lift the bull nose out the top.
I found that a claw foot with extension/ratchet worked on the upper bolt on the tranny side (rather tight but ok) with a regular wrench on the other end.
The gear reduction starter really spins things...higher pitched sound to it but I really liked the weight saving, that bullnose is a lump.
I did route the power thru the old push button solenoid.
Just thought I'd mention it as I remember reading someone removing major items to get at the starter...not needed.
 
FWIW, I eventually got mad enough at that nut to replace it with a Helicoil. Has worked out great for me. Didn't even disassemble anything, just carefully turned the special tap in through the hole in the engine block and into the bellhousing; then turned the insert in until it was only in the bellhousing. Used a coarse thread as I didn't have a 3/8NF kit handy. The original hole is just a little bit too large for maximum strength, but it will take full torque and I had no problems in about 5 years of daily driving with the Helicoil.

Also FWIW, my old solenoid had already lost part of it's smoke, so I didn't want to route all the current for the new motor through the old solenoid. At the same time, I was concerned about the ability of the original starter push button to handle the higher current of the new solenoid (roughly 12 amps vs 2 amps for the original). So I used the old solenoid to supply power only to the new solenoid, and let the new solenoid switch battery power to the motor.
 
Randall,
I guess the responses from a day ago got wiped out in whatever happened.

Anyway, I've routed the new starter as the old, thru the solenoid (I like being able to bump the engine while watching the valves for setting)...
How could I (I'm no electrician) protect the start switch/solenoid from the increase in amps? A relay? And, how should it/where/what amp would be appropriate?
 
The old solenoid IS a relay. Using the output of the old solenoid to operate the new integral solenoid on the new starter is the best thing you can do to "protect the start switch/solenoid from the increase in amps."

The starter button on the dash sends a small current to operate the solenoid, which is a switch (relay), that operates the BIG contacts to send the BIG current to the starter. One can bypass this entirely when installing the new starter, i.e: battery cable directly to the starter and starter button wire directly to the new solenoid. The worry here is that the new solenoid takes more current than the old, and puts more stress on the starter button. Using the old solenoid to power the new one, as you say you have done, means that, in effect, you have two relays on the system, your starter button is seeing the same load it always has -- and the old solenoid is seeing far less load than it used to. It used to power the starter. Now it's only powering the new solenoid.
 
Your pushbutton should be fine as-is. As Moseso says, with your setup, it is only powering the original solenoid/relay.

What I did to keep the old solenoid from having to carry power to the new motor was to move all the original connections from the top stud of the old solenoid (battery cable plus brown wire to fuse block) to the bottom stud. That way the big wire to the starter is hot all the time.

Then I ran a new wire from the top stud of the old solenoid to the small terminal on the new solenoid. This wire (and the old solenoid) only carries the 12 amps or so for the new solenoid, so it can be much smaller. (I used 12 AWG just because it was handy; you could get by with anything down to 18 AWG or so.)

But this is overkill; the new starter draws less current than the old one (even with that big honking solenoid) so the load on the old solenoid is lighter even if it does power the new starter. I was just worried about the condition of my old solenoid (it literally had been hot enough to smoke at one point, due to a shorted starter) and so chose a configuration to make it's load as light as possible.
 
Ummm, Hi Randall...
I'm Moses. "Moseso"
Art is "martx-5" Maybe there're other "Arts" too...
 
Oops!

Anyone will tell you, I have a terrible time keeping names straight, even for people I meet in the flesh. So please accept my apologies, it was purely unintentional!
 
I presume that your new starter is a direct replacement for the old bomb-type starter. I believe that the ring gear is different for this starter compared with the later starters.
 
NickMorgan said:
I believe that the ring gear is different for this starter compared with the later starters.
Click to expand...
Right. Need to be sure you get the right replacement. The early version (for the pressed-on ring gear) has nine teeth on the pinion; the later version (for the bolt-on ring gear) has ten teeth.

Since the flywheels will interchange, you should probably look through the starter hole while the starter is out, to be sure you've got a matched set. If it's the bolt-on ring gear, you can see the holes for the bolts through the starter hole. A friend of mine didn't notice that some DPO had installed a later flywheel; and he only got a few starts out of it before the gears started to slip.
 
Nick/Randall,
Right you are, I've the press on ring gear (recently seen whilst putting the 5 spd Toyota box in place) and the face of the Nippon starter was stamped TR2/3 for the early model.
My ring gear was pretty worn so I know I'll be soon replacing it, I'd have done it when putting the tranny in but did it outside at a friends place and didn't have the time to mess with it then.
 
Well, the gear-drive starter should also be easier on the ring gear, since it engages the teeth before powering the motor instead of spinning them first and then slamming them into engagement. You may get lucky and not need to replace it.
 
prb51 said:
Well the old bull nose starter gave up the ghost downtown today...
Click to expand...

I hope you'll hang on to the old starter -- they are infinitely rebuildable (good thing they are) and there are some masochistic souls who seem to actually enjoy the challenge and frustration of using them (IOW, me).

A common failure is that rubber drive thingy though (starter spins but does not engage), of course all the other usual maladies that can befall old motors happen here to.
 
Geo,
I've stashed it. I've a growing collection of 'spares' that I've upgraded, generator/regulator, tranny, radiator, and soon the steering box.
 
And maybe some day you'll have enough extra parts to build a second TR!

This is how we ended up with more 'genuine' Cobras and Lotus Sevens than originally left the factories.
 
Cloning.
The next thing to go is the tag....I just purchased a very nice AZ 1956 (A-595, black with white letters)license tag that the MVD says is fine for licensing (not currently used). That will look nice.
 
Geo - I have replaced that rubber thingy twice in my lifetime. The second one didn't last too long and before I replaced it with the third one, I MIG welded the second one at front end of that rubber thingy to the rear end to make it solid and it worked fine with it welded together. I welded it together on September 11th (remember 911 !), that very day when I ordered the third one. I had heard that all flights had been grounded and I knew that my new rubber thingy would be delayed, so I used the second one welded together till I received the new one about 3 weeks later. I carry the welded one as a spare in my tool-box. This is my guarantee that the rubber in this third one will last till eternity.
 
Okay, 'thingy' is now the correct name for it. Mine failed in the early 80s and I was unable to procure a replacement. Fixed it by jamming the inner and outer together in a vise with lots of strips of innertube rubber between them. Has worked fine for 25 years. I have the real replacement that will go in if & when the cobbled version fails.
 
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