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toe-out???

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cdsmith

cdsmith

Jedi Hopeful
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Well the rains have started, so started to look at the little car with ideas of "fixing" some things.

The first “fix” is to replace the rack boots - thanks Drew - if it wasn't for your misfortune I may have not have thought about doing this!

While I was scraping old road gunk off of the tie-rods (getting ready for PB blaster) I noticed a big discrepancy between the number of threads showing on the tie-rod on the left side vs. right side (lots showing on driver’s side not many on passenger side). I decided to do a preliminary check of alignment (that means I did some very basic measuring), and it turns out I've got what looks to be about 1/2" of toe-out. That could explain the slight pull to the left, and the squealing of the front tire(s) in not so hard cornering.

I guess I’ll give a shot at doing the alignment myself – I’ve done some research and discovered a plethora of methods for doing this at home – none really that clear, but that will not stop me from trying!

Wish me luck.

cd
 
Hello CD,

the number of threads on each side should be nearly the same.
Not only should the wheels toe in slightly (unless front wheel drive)by about 1\16" but when the wheels are straight ahead the rack or steering box should be central and have an equal number ot turns of the steering wheel lock to lock.
If, as it sounds as though you have, not got the steering centralised then there will be less lock one way. This can cause a pull with power steering as the servo effort will be acting even in the straight ahead position.

Alec
 
All you need is two people and a tape measure. You need to roll the car back about 6 feet and than roll it forward about 6 feet holding the wheel in the straight ahead position, it doesn't matter where the car is not traveling straight at this point, before each measurement and correction. This needs to be done to release the tires from any binding and to take any slack out of the steering system.

Find a tire tread groove near the center of the tire and have your helper hook the tape measure in the tread groove on the front of the tire as high as possible without hitting anything on the car.

You position the tape the same on the other tire and read the distance between the two tread blocks.

Repeat for the back of the tire.

Subtract the two measurements. The difference is the toe out or in. If the front measurement is greater your car is toed out. If the front measuremenet is smaller your car is toed in.

Look down the side of the car at both front tires and determine which tire is toed in or out the most. Apply the correction to this tire first.

Repeat the entire process until you achieve the correct toe in.

Now you need to road test the car. Drive down a road and determine if the steering wheel is in the straight ahead position when the car is going straight. Remember that the chamber/crwon of the road will effect the steering. On a two lane road the road slants down to the right to allow water to run off the side of the road. Therefore, the car will want to pull slightly to the right and you will have to turn the wheel slightly to the left to compensate. With an interstate highway with multiple lanes the left lane slopes down to the left. A large level marked parking lot is probably the best.

You need to adjust the tie rods equally to movw the steering wheel to the correct position. If you lengthen the left rod one turn you must shorten the right rod one turn to keep the toe in at the correct measurement.

Repeat until the steering wheel is in the correct position.

At this point the toe shuld be correct, but I always re-check the toe in one last time buy repeating the first process.

Phil
 
Dumb question, does the engine need to be in the car to do this??
 
Yes, engine should be in the car.
 
Yep, that's what I thought but wasn't sure for sure.

Miss Agatha is just eyeballed at the present.
 
Hello Phil,

the problem with your method is as you hint at:-

"as high as possible without hitting anything on the car."

With most cars you will get very little height at all which affects the accuracy. The toe setting is given at wheel centre height, and any large deviation from that height will affect the accuracy. I doubt if you can go much above 1\4 diameter of the wheel on the majority of cars, especially to the rear of the wheel.

Also, do not rely on the steering wheel position to be right. It may (probably) will have been removed and rotated to 'correct' incorrectly adjusted tracking in the past.

Alec
 
I string the cars, this is a pretty common way to do it, with my homemade turn tables, this does as good as job as the high dollar machines and does a true thrust alignment so the car does not crab, just setting the toe cannot assure you of this.
 
String the cars, and just what does that mean? Can I do that at home?
 
As a general rule, or almost all that I have taken apart,
The number of full turns on each tie rod end should be 15.
So 14-1/2 min to 15-1/2 max just to get the tie rod end in the correct position.
Do check the steering center to center also.
And on a Spridget you can get pretty close to the center of the wheel with a tape measure.
I use a stick across the whole tire and measure it that way.
 
Good info, but mine are on. So how many threads do you supose are left outside of the locking nut, any clue?

Oh wait, I guess I could count the threads on my spare rack.

Careful calulation says 6 threads should show from lock nut toward the rack, I have 3 showing on either side but no engine in car and did it by eye. Can't be too far off then.
 
Jack,

Yes the car needs to be loaded properly before the toe in is adjusted this way.

Alex,

Thanks for the comments.

Knowing the chord distance between the measuring points and diameter of the tire you can compute the proper toe in based on the specification in the book. It is a simple ratio calculation.

I just checked my spare steering wheel for my Truimph TR3 and you are correct, there is no missing spline acting as a keyway fixing the relationship of the steering wheel to the steering shaft.

Knowing this you need to center the steering rack first. To do this:

1. Disconnect the tie rods from the steering arms.

2.Turn the steering wheel all the way one way.

3. Turn the steering wheel all the way the other way, counting the turns.

4. Divide this number by two.

5. Turn the steering back by this number of turns and remove and replace the steering wheel in the straight ahead position.

6. Reconnect the tie rods to the steering arms.

7. Continue with the procedure I outlined earlier.

Hap,

I agree stringing the car is the best way.

Jack,

Stringing is method where you set up strings, monofilament fish line, on stands on each side of the car parallel to the centerline of the car. On stockcars we could measure from calibrated points on the frame rails, as we had a perimeter frame built from 4" x 4" square steel tubing. On our cars you need to establish the centerline first. We prepped the slick tires by rotating them and establishing a line on the tire to measure to. Next step was to center the steering box and clamping the column in this position with vise grips. Measure from the string to the front and rear points on the tires and adjust the toe in. We set the toe differently for each side of the car. We also did this between the front and rear tires and adjusted the rear axle to the right or left to adjust handling. We also the the wheel base differently on each side of the car. All this was done to set the handling for entry to the corners, the mid point, and the exit of the turn separately. Do I need to type up detailed instructions for this?

Hap,

Should we get into stagger and cross weight? I ran stagger and cross weight in my road racing gocart as the radius and number of left and right turns in the course was not equal.
 
I heard all I need to know. Very intresting concept and I appreciate you taking the time to outline the string methoid. I do understand what you are saying but think it is a bit overkill for my sunday driver.
 
I think Miss Agatha will be perfectly content with a standard alignment. If she develops quirks than you can string her up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Phil
 
The string method is great, especiallly if you are wondering about rear axle alignment in the frame.

But in the Spridgets, the sills (under the doors) are perfectly parrallel and flat, so you can use them as a reference.

For a "quick and dirty" tow-in set-up, you can turn the steering wheel to mid-postion (as described above). Then adjust the tow by putting a straight stick at 9 O-Clock and 3 O-Clock on each wheel (be sure the stick extends back towards the rear of the car, along the sills.....stick should be at least 4 feet long).
Adjust each wheel so that the stick is parrallel to each sill.
Be sure to bounce car up and down every now and again, so that it is setting on the ground fully.
This gets you real close.

*Then* do the string method. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm sure Hap sets ride height, bumpsteer and camber before doing all this (my car is shimmed 3/8" higher on the left side to offset my 185 lbs....but this is just a pure guess).
 
As far a stringing the first step is to measure the wheel track, they are not the same, the front is wider on a Spridget, the best way to do this is outside or one tire to the inside of the other tire with a tape measure. My strings are hieght centered at the hub center and all measuremets are taken from hub center, the body never comes into play, but it can be done this way, for instance SCCA Spec Racer Fords have attachment points on the body for a stringing device. Ok once the the front and rear track have been determined, lets say say the the front track is 2" wider than the rear track, so that would mean for the chassis to be squared in the strings the measurement on the rear would be one inch greater at the hub center than that of the front hub center on each side, one you achieved this by moving the stands that hold the strings you ready to check toe and the chassis is squared in the strings. From the string you would measure out to the edge of the rim on front and rear and compare the measurements to read the currnet toe, lets say for example the reading at the front edge of the rim is 1" greater than the rear edge of the rim, you would have 1" toe in, these are round fiquires are just an example, of course 1" toe would be a ton. Ok to adjust the front toe you have to worry about tire drag as you turn the outer tie rod, so all professional alignment set ups have the front tire sitting on a turn table that would allow adjustment without fristion playing into the tire sitting on the ground. A simple way to do this is make yourself cheap turntables, I made 4 squares of .100" aluminum large enough for the tire to sit on and then stack two of the square plates on top of each other using wheel bearing grease and WD40 so they would turn when the toe was adjusted, I've since saw guys use commercial floor tiles to do the same thing and for sure would cut down on the fab time.

Startech, I'm a 20+ year veteran of racing ( driving and prepping) , built probably over a dozen race cars ( road race and circle track) for myself and customers. I also owned and operated a Goodyear dealership for many years and did alignments on a Hunter aligment machine and rack, so while I don't claim to be the absolute expert, this ain't my first rodeo /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've done everything you've mentioned, but none of it purposeful in this converstaion. The orange car to the left of my post was a Huffaker built Bugeye, race car, probalby one of the tricket Spridget ever built on the planet, I drove it and prepped it during the 2005 season, it had tubular front control arms, horizontal watts links, Penske 8100 remote resivoir shocks all the way around, goofy trick and I aligned it the same way.

Yes Nial, I would on a race car, take ride height, bumpsteer etc, into play, but on these guy's street cars this isn't a issue. We don't want to confuse Jack anymore than he already is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif (you know I'm messing with you now Jack) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think Miss Agatha will be perfectly content with a standard alignment. If she develops quirks than you can string her up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Phil

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep, for sure, at speeds under 60 or so this is not an issue but is certinaly intresting to hear what and how you guys go through race prep.

I for one really appreciate you takeing your time to explain what is done and why.
 
[ QUOTE ]
(my car is shimmed 3/8" higher on the left side to offset my 185 lbs....but this is just a pure guess).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nial,

You have something there. I used to put weights on my seat before aligning my el Caminos. For the Midget, my plan is to put weights on the seat for me and half for my wife before I align. That way I'll be pretty close to the correct ride height and level whether she's with me or not.
 
Steve,

Yes the floor needs to be level. We had tire contact areas marked on the floor and used a Smart level to shim the areas to level.

Hap,

Just trying to show a glimmer of vehicle dynamics and the fun racers go through, to all of the readers. Maybe we can conjure so more folks into racing.
 
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