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Gentlemen, I just reinstalled my newly rebuilt starter (new armature) in my BJ8. Replaced the solenoid, checked and cleaned all connections. Starter didn't mount in easily, but seemed to go OK after fiddling with it. Started immediately but I heard a loud "whirring" noise that changed with RPM. Sounded like maybe something was hitting the fan. Anyway, immediately shut down and inspected. Nothing hitting fan. Removed starter and checked it over. Seemed OK. Then I reinstalled it. Started fine, but same whirring noise. Shut down engine, removed starter, reinspected..... Any ideas? Sound changes with RPM. Sound was not a grinding noise, more like the sound a baseball card makes when clothespinned to a bike wheel and the spokes hit it. What do I do now? I am thinking of cleaning up the bendix as it is "greasy" and trying again.??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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Starter Woes - Help Please
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It sort of sounds like the starter pinion is dragging on the ring gear. Cleaning the Bendix spiral splines & smoothing any rough spots would be a good first try. It should move very freely & don't put ANY lube on it. The inertia of the pinion against the splines is the only thing that moves the pinion into engagement. When the engine overruns the starter, the spiral moves the pinion out of engagement.
By "Starter didn't mount in easily" do you mean that something may be in a bind? They usually slip right in if everything is properly aligned. If the starter pinion to ring gear clearance was very tight the pinion might fail to disengage.
If there is a chance that the pinion is still actually engaged, the starter will turn destructive rpm if you rev the engine.
D
By "Starter didn't mount in easily" do you mean that something may be in a bind? They usually slip right in if everything is properly aligned. If the starter pinion to ring gear clearance was very tight the pinion might fail to disengage.
If there is a chance that the pinion is still actually engaged, the starter will turn destructive rpm if you rev the engine.
D
Thanks, Guys. I have cleaned up the bendix area and the mechanism slides more easily. I have only run the engine a few seconds as I knew something was wrong. I have installed a lot of starters in my life and I have never had one not just slide in. This is the original starter but rebuilt with a new armature. Doesn't seem like that would make a difference in fitting into the mount to me, but it just seems really tight. Have to use the bolts to take her fully home which doesn't seem right. I am beginning to wonder if I got my own starter back.... So you don't think it is the solonoid not releasing? It wouldn't make sense to me that that is the case as the sound changes with RPM, but when I did the search on archives there was a discussion of the solonoid not releasing, but that was the starter motor kept running after the key was off. Mine doesn't do that. IT just 'whirs"...not grinds... Well, I am going to try again after the cleanup. No lube, Dave. Thanks.
Well, gave it another try, but same results. This time, however, the starter "drug" for a second or two, then loosened up, spun freely and the engine started. No "whir". Hm. Then again and the whir came back. I don't think the starter "fits right" as it is really a tight fit and I think it is not quite flush with the engine flange when the bolts are fully tight (I should have used a feeler gauge, I guess). I think the rebuilders gave me the wrong starter back. I am going to discuss with them tomorrow. My starter fit in easily and this one doesn't. Thanks for your help.
dklawson
Yoda
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If the shop replaced the armature, that is also the shaft exiting the motor housing onto which the bendix unit is assembled. It could be that the armature is not correct and the bendix is too far forward... partially engaging the ring gear or at least hitting it. Perhaps if your removed the starter and made some careful measurements of the components forward of the mounting flange these could be compared to measurements someone could provide.
Now, that is an interesting thought! Perhaps the armature is the issue? If someone has the distance from the base of the starter where it meets the flange to the end of the armature and to the end and beginning of the bendix gear? Anyone happen to have a good 3000 starter lying around that they could measure?
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Hi Steve,
It may or may not be your original starter. In any event, the armature which controls the pinion position is probably not the same one.
My BN2 starter is likely to be the same as yours. Maybe someone can verify.
Going from the starter as it is positioned on the car -
There is a light spring which holds the pinion to the back & out of engagement
Next is the pinion gear which is 1.300" long, beveled teeth on the front edge
Next is a washer that is .150" thick
Next, a heavy spring with an installed length of 1.745"
Next, a washer that is .260" thick
Next, a retaining nut positioned to give the 1.745" heavy spring length, & locked with a cotter pin. I doubt if these measurments are very critical.
This part IS critical.
From the front edge of the pinion (surface that engages the flywheel) to the mounting flange is 1.125" with the pinion spiraled fully forward to engage the flywheel. The distance from the front edge of the pinion to the mounting flange is 1.750" with the pinion spiraled fully back to touch the heavy spring washer.
The large spring is a bumper (shock absorber) to take the jolt when the flywheel overruns the pinion & spirals it back out of engagement. The light spring is to keep the pinion from engaging when braking force inertia trys to move it forward.
As a matter of interest, the starter housing flange that plugs into the flywheel housing is 3.500" O.D.
Something is wrong because the pinion must move & engage/disengage very easily with the ring gear in order for things to work. Again, my BN2 starter may not be the same as yours. Anyone else have dimensions?
D
It may or may not be your original starter. In any event, the armature which controls the pinion position is probably not the same one.
My BN2 starter is likely to be the same as yours. Maybe someone can verify.
Going from the starter as it is positioned on the car -
There is a light spring which holds the pinion to the back & out of engagement
Next is the pinion gear which is 1.300" long, beveled teeth on the front edge
Next is a washer that is .150" thick
Next, a heavy spring with an installed length of 1.745"
Next, a washer that is .260" thick
Next, a retaining nut positioned to give the 1.745" heavy spring length, & locked with a cotter pin. I doubt if these measurments are very critical.
This part IS critical.
From the front edge of the pinion (surface that engages the flywheel) to the mounting flange is 1.125" with the pinion spiraled fully forward to engage the flywheel. The distance from the front edge of the pinion to the mounting flange is 1.750" with the pinion spiraled fully back to touch the heavy spring washer.
The large spring is a bumper (shock absorber) to take the jolt when the flywheel overruns the pinion & spirals it back out of engagement. The light spring is to keep the pinion from engaging when braking force inertia trys to move it forward.
As a matter of interest, the starter housing flange that plugs into the flywheel housing is 3.500" O.D.
Something is wrong because the pinion must move & engage/disengage very easily with the ring gear in order for things to work. Again, my BN2 starter may not be the same as yours. Anyone else have dimensions?
D
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Steve--
It is PROBABLY not your problem, but--if when you get through with all of the work you are doing and the starter is still not cranking over the engine to your satisfaction--check the ring gear.
I had a heck of a time with my wife's BN7--at first it would simply not turn over the engine very fast, and there were some times when it would not turn over at all, leading me to suspect a bad armature, etc. After having the starter rebuilt the problems were the same. Suspecting perhaps a bad solenoid I replaced that with no relief. Then I went through the wiring, both supply and ground--no better. Finally I pulled the hi-torque starter from my car and installed it but it did no better. A friend suggested checking the ring gear and looking through the starer drive hole I could see that at one place it had worked itself forward on the taper of the flywheel, causing the starter (any starter!) to drag and bind. After driving it back into place with a drift my friend tack-welded it into place through the starter drive hole. End of problem.
It is PROBABLY not your problem, but--if when you get through with all of the work you are doing and the starter is still not cranking over the engine to your satisfaction--check the ring gear.
I had a heck of a time with my wife's BN7--at first it would simply not turn over the engine very fast, and there were some times when it would not turn over at all, leading me to suspect a bad armature, etc. After having the starter rebuilt the problems were the same. Suspecting perhaps a bad solenoid I replaced that with no relief. Then I went through the wiring, both supply and ground--no better. Finally I pulled the hi-torque starter from my car and installed it but it did no better. A friend suggested checking the ring gear and looking through the starer drive hole I could see that at one place it had worked itself forward on the taper of the flywheel, causing the starter (any starter!) to drag and bind. After driving it back into place with a drift my friend tack-welded it into place through the starter drive hole. End of problem.
Well, DK seems to have the correct diagnosis. And, of course, Keoke had it down cold with "Take it back!". As a side note, one of the best things about this forum is that it gives me an avenue to 'vent' a little when in the throes of a project. There I am on Father's Day doing what I wanted to do - "Honey, all I really want on Father's Day is to take a drive in the Healey...." but first I had to install a starter...!! Oh, well. Back to the matter at hand: Took the starter back to the rebuilder. Had a nice conversation - "Oh...It's a 3000????" Anyway, it turns out there are two possible armatures for Healeys (at least two, anyway..) and the rebuilder had installed the longer of the two (by about an inch). So, the "3000 armature" is on order. Hopefully, by the weekend I will get it back and can try again. I am pretty sure that this will fix the problem fine as it makes sense that the wrong armature wouldn't fit right and could be binding up on the rear of the housing. Thanks for the thoughts and the "forum" and I will update with the latest when I get it back. You never know - someone else might benefit from this discussion. I know I have and thanks!
Hey, guess what? I have the same problem with my 'daily ride', too! I have a very nice '93 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi (the supercharged one with heads up display, etc) and after 194000 miles the air conditioner compressor goes bad. No problem, right? GM car and all, a quick trip to a dozen places will get this, right? Wrong. Three days now trying to find the "right" compressor for my car. Geez. Someone in my office said today that "Nothing in your life is simple, Steve!" and he is so right!!! Anyway, hopin' the new armature actually arrives and all that!!!
OK. Finally got the starter working right! Wanted to provide follow-up so that someone might benefit. Turns out that the first armature was correct, BUT when they replaced the field windings they put the one with the connection bolt 180 degrees out and that meant I was trying to install the starter 180 degrees out (to have the connection at the top where it was and where it had to be for the cable to connect). Turns out that though the mounting plate (part with the bolt holes) looks the same whether it was being put in either way, it actually isn't so I was installing the starter 180 out from where the mounting plate should have been. Several of you were right in that the gearing was binding and not releasing. The owner of the rebuild shop came out to the house on Saturday and tried to install it himself. He determined very quickly that it was 180 out and took it back to the shop to correct - move the windings 180 degrees. Picked it up yesterday and it slid in great, bolted up fine and operated per specification! Engine starts very quickly so I didn't "grind the starter" much, but it engaged, turned the engine and disengaged properly several times. Now I can go test drive my newly balance wheel drums and the new windblocker, too!!! Thank you all again for all your help!!!