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Starter Switch Followup -- Won't Stop!!!

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GA72TR6

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I resolved my recent issues with a new starter switch and solenoid installation. You may recall that the new switch would not crank the car. Turns out the old solenoid was shot (probably never needed that new $100 switch!). So, I installed a replacement solenoid. The new solenoid was sticking in the crank position, and after multiple starts/stops, install/uninstall/resinstall, and a few swift whacks, the solenoid is unstuck. She fired on the first crank using the new starter switch and unstuck solenoid....

So, why am I posting again? Well, now, after starting, I can't turn it OFF! To stop the engine, I had to pull the red/white wire from the starter switch off the solenoid (should that be turning the motor off?) or pull the coil wire (did each on separate occassions, trying to replicate the problem and both kill the engine).

Any ideas about where to start trouble-shooting? I've resolved not to listen to the Beatles or watch an Austin Powers movie until this is resolved!!!!!
 
What wire(s) do you have connected to the (+) terminal of the coil? What ignition set up are you running? If stock, what year is your car?
 
It's a 1978 with the stock setup. I've replaced the solenoid and ignition switch with "stock" replacements from Moss Motors, as the PO had rigged a starter button bypass to start the car (apparently, because the solenoid was bad and he didn't have access to another).

True to the wireing diagram, there's a red/white wire from the starter switch to the solenoid, a grean/white wire from the solenoid to the coil, a cable from the negative solenoid terminal to the starter, two cables from the positive solenoid terminal to the alternator and battery, and four (spliced into two spade connectors) that run to the positive terminal on the solenoid for accessory power to the rest of the car.

All the wires are original and the colors match the wiring diagram. All the spade connections on the solenoid appear to be "idiot proof," as they are all different shapes, so it would be nearly impossible to foul up connections (unless you used a hammer!).

Thoughts?
 
If you disconnect the white / green wire does it start and does it continue to run with the key off?
 
Just tried it....yes, with the white/green coil wire disconnected at the solenoid, the car will crank and fire up, and turn off via the switch. Should it be doing that -- I assumed it would crank but not fire?
 
Which terminal is the white/green wire going to? If it's going to the terminal which is always hot (big one from the battery), you'll never be able to shut it off (probably frying your coil too). It seems to me it should be going to the same terminal as the starter switch, is this correct? Sorry, don't have my service manual handy right now.
 
No, white/green is not going to the terminal the battery is connected to -- it has its own spade connector on the right side of the solenoid and appears to be connected correctly @ the solenoid based on the diagrams.

After my last hunt and try, I realized, however, that the starter motor continues to run even after the engine is running.

I don't know if this helps troubleshoot, or if it's just driving me closer to trailering this thing to the local import shop to let them take a blank check and do whatever needs to be done (and put their kids through college at the same time!). Ahhhhhhhh!
 
Ah, if the starter is running, then that's the problem. The green/white wire is fine. However, either your key switch or something in between is turning the starter solenoid on. If you disconnect the white/red wire from the solenoid, does the starter run when you turn the key on? If not, then something in your key switch is not right, like maybe that wire (the one that turns the solenoid on) is getting voltage before you turn the key to the start position. In any case, I wouldn't run it very long, your starter and the coil won't last long if they are always energized. Look to make sure the white/red wire is going to to right place at the switch. If it is, then maybe the contacts in the switch are sticking when you turn it to the start position. Does it crank once you turn the key on, or does it wait until you turn it to the start position? If it waits until you crank it, then the contacts are probably sticking.
 
Is that a new solenoid? Sure sounds like it is sticking yet, again.
 
Good point, Jack. Unhook the big wire to the starter motor, crank it, and see if the solenoid clicks off again when you release the key.
 
Ah....and don't connect those wires again until the solenoid is disenguaged...what a spark!

Anyway, disconnected the starter cable from the solenoid terminal and left everything else connected. I reconnected the battery and turned the key to crank...the solenoid clicks on. However, when I turned the key back, the solenoid does not click off. I assume it should w/o the starter cable connected to the other solenoid terminal, right?

I assume that solenoid is sticking in a position that is like starting a car and leaving the starter switch in the crank position....engine running, starter running, and nothing can be turned off w/o yanking a hot wire off a terminal, right?

Sorry to sound dense on this....I'm just at my witt's end. Plus, I want to verify as much as possible before taking the 80-mile treck to my "local" Brit parts shop to swap this solenoid.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ah....and don't connect those wires again until the solenoid is disenguaged...what a spark!

Anyway, disconnected the starter cable from the solenoid terminal and left everything else connected. I reconnected the battery and turned the key to crank...the solenoid clicks on. However, when I turned the key back, the solenoid does not click off. I assume it should w/o the starter cable connected to the other solenoid terminal, right?

I assume that solenoid is sticking in a position that is like starting a car and leaving the starter switch in the crank position....engine running, starter running, and nothing can be turned off w/o yanking a hot wire off a terminal, right?

Sorry to sound dense on this....I'm just at my witt's end. Plus, I want to verify as much as possible before taking the 80-mile treck to my "local" Brit parts shop to swap this solenoid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct, the solenoid is sticking, and this is identical to holding the key in the start position. The engine keeps on running when you turn the key off, because the solenoid sticking on is keeping the coil energized when you turn the key off. Either the solenoid is sticking mechanically, or like I said, something is not right with the key switch. Once it clicks on (starter motor disconnected), does it click off if you pull the wire from the key switch off? If it clicks off then, then the solenoid is probably fine. If the solenoid stays on, then you may have a bad solenoid.
 
You got it, Bingo, you get the prize. And it is, a new solenoid. Quit messing about and replace it.

Just hit me, is that solenoid new, heh, a new broken one.

If you order from Tony they are cheeper and I would expect just as fast on a rush order.
 
Ah, this narrows it down to one thing! When the key is turned on, the solenoi clicks on, but when it's clicked off, the solenoid do NOT click off. When I pull the red/white ignition wire from the solenoid, it finally clicks off. Just to verify, I turn the key on and plugged/unpluged the ignition wire from the solenoid...it clicks on and off just like it should, so it's working fine. But, as I mentioned, turning the key on and off does not engage/disengage the solenoid in the same way. So, the problem is not with the (yes, new) solenoid ($17.99)....it's with with the ($120) (yes, new also) starter switch I just installed and/or with the wiring that runs between the switch and the solenoid.

I'll reconect the old switch and see if that works (really hate to disassemble that stearing column again!) and if that does not fix the problem, I'll have to trace those wires to find the short.

THANKS!!!
 
How about the switch? Is it really turning off. Can check with a meter.
 
I've got a meter...what's the procedure for check on and off?
 
I have a meter...what procedure should I follow to see if it's really turning on and off?
 
I had this exact problem after re and reing my engine and transmission a couple of months ago.... the problem, believe it or not, was the handbrake light. The starter kept running when the handbrake was on, and stopped when I released it.

I bet you wonder how I found that out? The mechanic who looks after my car once remarked that 76 MGs have a rare problem where putting on the handbrake starts the car.... HuH????

Anyway,if you have a good wiring diagram which is actually readable you should see that the red/white wire and the green/orange wire from the handbrake light switch come together at the diodes which control a couple of items under the dash. There was a place where the insulation had come off the green/orange wire and was backfeeding current into the red/white wire.

I know it sounds stupid, but its worth a look. Just create the problem and then release your handbrake.....

Regards
Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/canpatriot.GIF
 
The hand break theory sounds intriguing. Though I’m unable to replicate that specific scenario, I’ve still potentially have a short somewhere (unless the information at the end of this post under POTENTIAL SUSPECT is the true culprit here).

I figured out my meter this evening and took the following volt readings with everything hooked up (except the starter cable - I’m tired of getting shocked!). In the following, S = solenoid, I = red/white ignition wire at the solenoid, C = coil wire at the solenoid:

key @ crank - S engages, I=11.8, C=12.1
key @ on – S stays engaged, I=8.7, C=12.1
key @ accessory – S stays engaged, I=5.5, C=12.1
key @ off – S stays engaged, I=6.0, C=12.1

So, “S,” stays engaged at every key setting after it’s been initially engaged by “I.” “C” always has ~12V running to it despite the key’s position, and, although it drops, “I” also shows voltage when it’s connected to S despite the key position. Through the key sequence, “S” never disengages. I disconnected “I” from “S” and “S” disengages.

Then I ran another test with “I” disconnected from “S” to test the starter switch independent of the solenoid:

Key @ crank - I=12.1, C=6.3
key @ on - I=11.8, C=6.3
key @ accessory - I=0, C=0
key @ off – I=0, C=0

So, the coil is getting charge somewhere even when the ignition wire is disengaged from the solenoid. I assume this should not be the case. Note that in this second sequence, “S” does not engage at all.

POTENTIAL SUSPECT
While referencing the diagrams and a catalog listing for a new distributor, I noticed there are two distributors (Moss Motors) for the 1500 Midget: a C.E.I. distributor that has a single lead from distributor to the coil and an Opus distributor that shows three wires connecting - via a junction box - the distributor to the coil (one wire) and ignition switch (two wires, one via a distributor resistor). My car has only one wire from the coil to the distributor, so I’ve assumed that I have the C.E.I. distributor.

30 minutes ago, however, I found a disconnected junction box coming out of the original ignition switch wire bundle with three wires connected to it. This looked suspicious, so upon closer examination of the wiring diagram, I found they match the colors of the THREE wires going into the distributor, connected via a similar junction box to three wires in the ignition switch bundle….like the 3-wire Opus distributor connection.

But, again, this three-wire junction box is not connected to anything in my current setup – only a single wire connects the distributor and coil. Given the rigged starter button installed by a PO (the replacement of which is the start of all this mess!!!), it wouldn’t surprise me if the PO at some point replaced the distributor (3-wire coil/switch connection) with the wrong one (1-wire coil connection) - one that would not work with my ignition switch, and that’s why he installed the starter switch bypass button in the first place.

Does that sound like a potential cause? If that gives anybody an “ah ha!,” I’ll flat-bed this thing to the import shop and let them replace the distributor and properly connect it, if necessary, or otherwise track down my wiring short.
 
Have you opened up your distributor at any point? With one wire coming out of it, I suspect that it is a points-type distributor from another car.

A little history - all Midgets came from the factory with the OPUS distributor. The CEI setup was a warranty replacement for failing OPUS units. The CEI dizzy will have a two-wire harness coming out of it with a combination male-female connnector on it. This hooks up to the amplifier unit which is a black box mounted on the pedal box underneath the coil. The amplifier box will also have white wires (maybe white and black, I cant recall offhand) that go to the coil. Incidentally, inside the black box is a standard GM 4-pin HEI module, so if the CEI box ever fails, it's a relatively easy fix.

So, look for the black amplifier box and the two-wire harness. If they're not there, it's not a CEI ignition. Next, take the cap off the dizzy. I'll bet dollars to donuts it's points, from what you've described.

By the way, in your first scenario, the drop in voltage at I once the key was released from start is normal. There's a resistance wire built in to the harness that's bypassed when the key is in the start position, so the coil sees a full 12V and the spark is hotter for starting. Once the key is released to run, the ignition current now travels through the resistance wire, and the coil only sees 9V or so. 1500's have an externally ballasted coil. Earlier cars don't have this resistance wire, and so have internally ballasted coils that see 12V all the time with the ignition on.

Good luck. Sounds like you've got more sleuthing to do.
 
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