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Well the "rebuilt" bullet nose starter on my TR3 worked great for about 2-3 weeks! We went out the garage to take a nice ride during the mild weekend and the same old thing-- it grinds agains the flywheel but won't fully engage. I've tried to move the car while in 4th gear thinking it is "caught on a dead spot" on the flywheel, "bound up" or whatever but it doesn't change. Wondered if you guys know what size "nut" is used to crank the car manually-- I don't have an original crank per se but do have some long socket extensions for 3/8 and 1/2 inch drives. Thought maybe I'd at least turn the engine/flywheel to see if I can get it to engage elsewhere before I pull it and go cursing to the rebuilders. Comments?
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Starter again!
- Thread starter jayhawk
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Geo Hahn
Yoda
Offline
Are you hearing metal-to-metal clashing, or do you just hear the starter spinning but not engaging. I know what the latter may be but have never experienced a noisy clash.
Supposedly the starters were originally installed with shims to adjust the mesh. Moss sells them p/n 549-430 and their catalog contains a note (p 81 or so) describing them. That said, my TR3A certainly has none.
Supposedly the starters were originally installed with shims to adjust the mesh. Moss sells them p/n 549-430 and their catalog contains a note (p 81 or so) describing them. That said, my TR3A certainly has none.
vettedog72
Jedi Knight
Offline
I sure hope it is not like the TR6 with a friction fit ring gear on the fly wheel. The TR6 ring gear is known to slip away further and further until the starter will not engage. Surely the TR6 contraption was a "modern design" well beyond the TR3 (lots of these /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif); and, hopefully, you will be able to adjust out the starter to engage the ring gear.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
Supposedly the starters were originally installed with shims to adjust the mesh. Moss sells them p/n 549-430 and their catalog contains a note (p 81 or so) describing them. That said, my TR3A certainly has none.
[/ QUOTE ]
My TR4 had one shim under the original starter.
Supposedly the starters were originally installed with shims to adjust the mesh. Moss sells them p/n 549-430 and their catalog contains a note (p 81 or so) describing them. That said, my TR3A certainly has none.
[/ QUOTE ]
My TR4 had one shim under the original starter.
Hi jayhawk you can disengage the starter at the back of the starter armature. I think it is a 1/4inch or5/16 square head. If you look at the very back of the starter the square stud should be sticking out from the body of the starter about ½ inch just put a wrench on it and unwind the bendix. My first guess would be that you have a bad ring gear. I have to ask how long you have had the problem. Did this starter work for a couple of years before the problem? If you have an enclosed bendix/drive starter, the one without the springy looking deal on the end then you need a shrink on ring gear on the flywheel. If you have the exposed bendix then you have the bolt on ring gear. I guess you could drop the inspection plate at the bottom of the transmission and tell which flywheel you have.
George
George
Thanks, guys-- The deal is, this thing engaged/started perfectly for 2 weeks after I had it rebuilt. "practically exploded on" when I pushed the starter were my terms after I installed it. It is the bullet type with bendix inside so I have to pull the starter again. When I took it in the first time the guys at the garage said the bendix gears had a little wear but weren't bad and the bendix itself worked fine. They said the motor was too weak to extend the bendix properly.
And Geo-- it is a metal grinding noise. Alan-- This one had 4 shims when I took it apart the first time but I don't know how many were left after the rebuild-- again it worked great for a little while. I guess I'll try to turn it to reposition the flywheel and if that doesn't work, wait for a warmer day (winter came back with a fast moving front) and pull it again, inspect the starter and the ring gear.
And Geo-- it is a metal grinding noise. Alan-- This one had 4 shims when I took it apart the first time but I don't know how many were left after the rebuild-- again it worked great for a little while. I guess I'll try to turn it to reposition the flywheel and if that doesn't work, wait for a warmer day (winter came back with a fast moving front) and pull it again, inspect the starter and the ring gear.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
Offline
Hi again,
I'm just throwing out some ideas here, not really certain what's happening.
Regarding shims, does anyone know how to determine how many should be used? I don't recall ever seeing anything about measuring for starter shim installation in any shop manual.
If your car had 4 shims in there, that seems like a lot. Maybe it's typical with the bull nose starters, I'm just not all that familiar with them. Are there 4 shims in there now? If the starter gear over-engages, maybe because there aren't enough shims, it might not disengage properly and the starter might be damaged after the engine starts. Then, when the car is shut down, the starter disengages as it should, but the damage is done.
Regarding ring gears, the teeth are chamfered on one side of the ring gear. I'm not sure if this is the case with the pressed on ring gear, but it is with all the bolt-on ones I've seen. There are correct and incorrect orientation of the ring gear.
I believe your bull nose starter engages by pushing the starter gear rearward, so the chamfer on the ring gear teeth sould be facing the front of the car, I'm guessing. Also, shimming would move the starter away from the ring gear, reducing the amount of mesh.
The later starter has the gear sticking out to the rear, and it's pulled toward the front of the car to engage. In this setup, the chamfer on the ring gear teeth should face the rear of the car. (This is the setup on my TR4.) Also in this case, adding shims moves the starter gear closer to the ring gear and increase gear mesh when it'sengaged.
Changing from one type of starter to the other, or swapping aroudn flywheels, also usually means orienting the ring gear properly to match the starter. However, I gotta add that I presently have a modern gear reduction starter on my TR4, which engages by pushing the gear rearward, just like the TR3 bull nose starter. The ring gear on my car is "incorrectly oriented", because it's still set up for the pull-type Lucas starter, with the chamfer on the trailing edge. But, the vendor who sold me the starter and other users have told me it doesn't seem to matter with these modern starters.
One other thought, the bolt-on ring gear is held on by 6 bolts, if I recall correctly. And, there are locking tab washers under those bolt heads, that should be bent to keep the bolt from backing out. If the tab washers were omitted, one of the bolts might back out and cause some interference. For that matter, if one of the locking tabs were improperly installed, it might cause some interference.
I'm just throwing out some ideas here, not really certain what's happening.
Regarding shims, does anyone know how to determine how many should be used? I don't recall ever seeing anything about measuring for starter shim installation in any shop manual.
If your car had 4 shims in there, that seems like a lot. Maybe it's typical with the bull nose starters, I'm just not all that familiar with them. Are there 4 shims in there now? If the starter gear over-engages, maybe because there aren't enough shims, it might not disengage properly and the starter might be damaged after the engine starts. Then, when the car is shut down, the starter disengages as it should, but the damage is done.
Regarding ring gears, the teeth are chamfered on one side of the ring gear. I'm not sure if this is the case with the pressed on ring gear, but it is with all the bolt-on ones I've seen. There are correct and incorrect orientation of the ring gear.
I believe your bull nose starter engages by pushing the starter gear rearward, so the chamfer on the ring gear teeth sould be facing the front of the car, I'm guessing. Also, shimming would move the starter away from the ring gear, reducing the amount of mesh.
The later starter has the gear sticking out to the rear, and it's pulled toward the front of the car to engage. In this setup, the chamfer on the ring gear teeth should face the rear of the car. (This is the setup on my TR4.) Also in this case, adding shims moves the starter gear closer to the ring gear and increase gear mesh when it'sengaged.
Changing from one type of starter to the other, or swapping aroudn flywheels, also usually means orienting the ring gear properly to match the starter. However, I gotta add that I presently have a modern gear reduction starter on my TR4, which engages by pushing the gear rearward, just like the TR3 bull nose starter. The ring gear on my car is "incorrectly oriented", because it's still set up for the pull-type Lucas starter, with the chamfer on the trailing edge. But, the vendor who sold me the starter and other users have told me it doesn't seem to matter with these modern starters.
One other thought, the bolt-on ring gear is held on by 6 bolts, if I recall correctly. And, there are locking tab washers under those bolt heads, that should be bent to keep the bolt from backing out. If the tab washers were omitted, one of the bolts might back out and cause some interference. For that matter, if one of the locking tabs were improperly installed, it might cause some interference.
Geo Hahn
Yoda
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
...had 4 shims when I took it apart the first time but I don't know how many were left after the rebuild...
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't the shims go between the starter and the bell-housing when you mount the dingus?
FWIW -- For 25 years I have had the 'wrong' flywheel mated to a bullet nose starter that long ago lost whatever shims were present and have had no problems. Not an ideal arrangement, but my point is that there may be a lot of lee-way in the set-up if the starter is working properly.
I think you are correct that it should go back to the rebuilder.
...had 4 shims when I took it apart the first time but I don't know how many were left after the rebuild...
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't the shims go between the starter and the bell-housing when you mount the dingus?
FWIW -- For 25 years I have had the 'wrong' flywheel mated to a bullet nose starter that long ago lost whatever shims were present and have had no problems. Not an ideal arrangement, but my point is that there may be a lot of lee-way in the set-up if the starter is working properly.
I think you are correct that it should go back to the rebuilder.
I was told once that the shim/s were installed to provide a buffer between the two cast-iron pieces. It makes sense when look at the fragile hole in block where the starter goes. I do not see why they could not provide a kinda aliment set up also, but I doubt it. I figured that jayhawk’s ring gear is old and damaged and permits the drive to bind and get stuck. It might be the wrong one or not. The two ring gears in question are slightly different size and Moss provides an essay on the subject in their catalogue. However, they do sell ring gears and I respect Geo’s input. Moreover, the ring gear has a hard life because it basically stops only in two places and gets slammed by the starter. I suggest that jayhawk pulls his starter out and puts the engine at top dead center and looks at the ring gear then moves the flywheel 180 and looks again. I bet he sees a large dents in both spots.
George
George
Hi JayH,
For some reason it always seemed like we had more problems with that early 'long' starter (as we use to call them because more of it stuck out into the engine compartment). We were always rebuilding them over after doing them once it seemed. The electrics are the same, but I can say this, they only have to have a slight problem to grind. That is if they don't make the necessary RPM/HP then the drive can't push itself in hard enough to engage. It could be anything, they probably cleaned up the commutator on a lathe and put in new brushes. But now, it might need new brush springs, or maybe one of the field coils developed a minor short, or perhaps the armature has a dead spot now. Even though it's grinding did it sound like it still wanted to turn over as quick as before? We did,one time, rotate someones ring gear (as someone mentioned earlier) maybe 20 ro 30 degrees to eliminate the worn spot problem. Heating with a torch, tapping off with a brass hammer them reversing the procedure using clamps. If the armature proves bad I think I know a source for a reasonable NOS one. Good luck.
Tom Lains
ps. One shim was the average if there was one.
For some reason it always seemed like we had more problems with that early 'long' starter (as we use to call them because more of it stuck out into the engine compartment). We were always rebuilding them over after doing them once it seemed. The electrics are the same, but I can say this, they only have to have a slight problem to grind. That is if they don't make the necessary RPM/HP then the drive can't push itself in hard enough to engage. It could be anything, they probably cleaned up the commutator on a lathe and put in new brushes. But now, it might need new brush springs, or maybe one of the field coils developed a minor short, or perhaps the armature has a dead spot now. Even though it's grinding did it sound like it still wanted to turn over as quick as before? We did,one time, rotate someones ring gear (as someone mentioned earlier) maybe 20 ro 30 degrees to eliminate the worn spot problem. Heating with a torch, tapping off with a brass hammer them reversing the procedure using clamps. If the armature proves bad I think I know a source for a reasonable NOS one. Good luck.
Tom Lains
ps. One shim was the average if there was one.
Thanks again. It seemed to work great for a while then I had to start it when it was cold and had to try 3 or 4 times before it caught. It died when backing out of the garage (which is on an incline) and It would do nothing but grind therafter. I can't tell whether it is caught in that position or the bendix is actually pushing itself into the flywheel each time. It just grinds. I just called the garage and the lady ticket writer first told me to "bring it in and they would see what it is" very enthusiastically I explained again that it won't start. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif The head honcho is to call back to see if he can provide some tip.