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Some Thoughts on Rotisserie Restorations

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SHG

SHG

Jedi Warrior
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I don't know about you others guys, but I like to look at the pics of Healeys for sale on eBay just to check them out for fun. I've actually learned a lot this way.

One of the things that I cannot understand, however, is why so many Healeys have been "restored" wrong. I'm not talking about the ones with a V8 dropped in, or where intentional modifications were made, but where it is clear that a lot of work was done, a lot of money spent, but the results are simply wrong.

For example, where the radiator shroud is black instead of red, or where they used blue plug leads, or worm clamps, or the wrong exhaust. There are a ton of examples where it is clear that somebody spent a ton of money to fix them up, but just didn't know how to get the details correct.

I remember when I bought my BJ8, I had so much to learn about the details. The more I learned, the more I realized what the PO had done wrong. He was so proud of his work, but so clueless as to what he had done. As a newbie, I was in no position to realize at the time how many details would have to be redone in order to truly restore the car. Even now, I keep learning new things, and I supposed that I will do so as long as I have my car.

It's not that I don't understand that some owners don't really understand what is wrong in the restoration, or that some shops doing restorations don't know enough about the car to do it right. I'm just amazed at how many mis-restored cars there are, and how people spend all this money on restoration without knowing what they are trying to achieve.
 
I'm with you 100 percent. I don't get it either.

I've been part of the "concours movement" with Austin-Healeys for a long time; since the beginning of concours as we now know it, and I have observed a couple of themes with these restorations done in a knowledge-vacuum:

First, the restorers either don't know that there is a Concours Committee and that they have published an invaluable Originality Guidelines that anyone can purchase, or they have heard negative things about concours and were discouraged from investigating it. If these retorers -- whether individuals or professional shops -- were better-connected to the "Healey world," such as becoming members of the club(s), they would be miles ahead. The cost for club membership(s) and the Originality Guide is nothing compared to the benefits received, or compared to what someone spends on a restoration. It is often no more difficult or expensive to restore something correctly, as-original, than to do it wrong.

Second, when these people are confronted with the fact that they blew it (spent all of that time, effort and money doing things wrong/incorrect/non-original, with the result that their car is less desirable and worth less) they get defensive and claim that they don't care, "didn't want it original anyway," etc., etc. Then they bad-mouth "concours" to anyone who'll listen (and unfortunately many do). It's an understandable defensive psychological reaction, but unfortunately they often get sympathy and find others willing to give the cold shoulder to the Concours Committee and the huge volunteer effort and highly valuable service that they provide.

I've watched it for years and years, and am always disappointed when the "concours guys" are the ones put on the defensive by ignorant people who find affirmation from others like them. Whether people realize it or not, we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people who have done the research, documented originality, and published the results, almost all on a volunteer basis, for the benefit of the marque and its owners. It's that simple.
 
Reid,

where can one pick up a copy of the concours guidelines?

Thanks,
Tim
 
Editor_Reid said:
we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to the people who have done the research, documented originality, and published the results, almost all on a volunteer basis, for the benefit of the marque and its owners. It's that simple.
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/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/iagree.gif

Well said, Reid! He he .. maybe someone will do one of those quirky Real Men of Genius Bud Light radio commercials, y'know the "Here's to Mr. Austin-Healey concours researcher guy .. "

Cheers,
John
 
shg. i agree with you many poor examples exist perhaps we should examine how/why so many healey restorations are mis-managed? the number one reason i believe is that these restows are being performed by people who are something less the true enthusiasts of the mark, that is to say they may possess the talent and technical skills required to perform a total rebuild on a 55 "t" bird because thats what they know and do most of the time, but lack the knowledge required to do a correct engine bay detailing on a healey and probably that of many other cars as well ive been to hot rod shows were cars of all types had been chopped and channeled and all the detailing was achieved with great care paint jobs that are spectacular, flawless engineering and fabricating, does that indicate they have the intimate knowledge of all the subtle nuances required to complete a successful healey restoration? i think not, the thing that bugs me about people that would tell a healey owner that they could do a restow. for them is that they have the ability yet wont bother to educate themselves on how its properly accomplished, theres a bunch of money in doing this kind of work so thell just forge ahead a do what they think the car should look like to expedite the transaction, yes the car may come out looking real good to the untrained eye when in fact its not traditionally or historically accurate, to me the best thing a person can do to insure a proper rebuild is to use a specialist you wouldnt use a knee surgeon to operate on your nose ( maybe you would, what would it matter)-/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/devilgrin.gif so why use a shop that does great 59 caddy rebuilds to do a healey? then there are people who just love to have that honking giant 502 chevy big block in their 104, hay thats just what they like you cant fault them for their automotive taste, just drive around to some trailer parks i bet youll find a bunch of them, if one would be willing and able to afford the time and money why not do it correctly? i recently contributed on this forum to a question concerning a "volt" meter someone mentioned using an "L" shaped bracket fixed to the lower underside of the dash to mount the gage, yes they where correct in that this was often done to many healeys over the years i commented that i thought this method was 'too 55 chevy for me" while additional gage clusters might look great in a 55 cevy i dont feel its appropriate for my healey, well thats just me, and i think it all boils down to a matter of taste and a willingness to be accurate in the preservation of these incredible cars. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif
 
Healey Friends:

I salute the fine work done by the concours committee -- but I think some of the obsession with minutia on Healeys is neither appropriate or of much value to owners of most of the Healeys on the road today.

I have never understood why it is so important the hose clamps be of the original type or the at plug wires be of a particular color or style. Obviously, if these items are actually original and functional, there is value in keeping them there and applauding their originality. But is a repro hose clamp or spark plug wire that appears original any better than a decent serviceable aftermarket item -- especially if the aftermarket item works better? My Healey and all my old cars use modern worm type hose clamps. This is because we drive our cars extensively and those original style repro hose clamps just plain do not work as well as the modern worm clamp.

Preserving the history of the marque is important and the concours committee has done a great job cataloging how these Healeys were probably built originally (I say probably because the Healey was a low production car without the best production controls). But I for one do not think that any made-over Healey that looks original is really an original car. There are many beautifully restored Healeys out there that look great and run right -- even though they may not have all the correct details identified in the concours manuals.

Bill
Albuquerque, NM
 
I'm not sure we're talking about the same cars. While I wouldn't do this, I have no problem with a replacement of a failed wire clamp with a worm clamp. But if you're going to do a ground up RESTORATION, then why would you spend a ton of money to get a car that is not restored?

Perhaps a better example is putting a monza exhaust on. There's nothing wrong with a monza exhaust. It just doesn't belong on a Healey, so if you are RESTORING a Healey, why do it?

Worse yet, selling the Healey as RESTORED is tanatmount to fraud if its renovated, remodeled, whatever you want to call it, but not RESTORED. And frankly, by your reasoning, why not drop a Chevy small block in there. And why not a nav system. And keep going until it's k-car instead of a Healey.
 
I agree, I want as close to original as I can get but I want to DRIVE the car and enjoy it. That is what it was made for. If I replace something due to wear, I get original if I can (and I almost always can). The thrill is to drive a 1964 Healey as it was in the year of its birth. My other cars give me the creature comforts and reliability and are fun to drive. Butttt, they cannot replace the Healey (and other vintage LBCs) experience! Thats my game and I appreciate others doing their thing if thats their game. I love Hot August Nights but would never want a Hot Rod.
I love to say, if everyone liked vinalla, we wouldn't need 31 flavors. (Or, different strokes for different folks).
TH
 
I have a great deal of respect for those who restore a car to concourse standards. But everybody has to realize that there are those of us who follow a graduated scale of willingness to use detail parts that are inferior to what is available today. For example I used rubber cushioned Adel clamps for my wire harness (and I've used ty-wraps to make the wire harness less of a mess), I've put in Ford exhaust valves, seats and guides, I have an oil cooler and a spin-on filter, I have an add-on fuel filter. I'm running MTL oil in my gearbox, I've used urethane paints, I've used some stainless hardware of the same style, and the list goes on. I should add that I am not interested in concourse competition. Not everyone is. Most of what I've modified (save the paints and engine work) could be un-done in a week of work. Sure, it is wrong to snivel over concours points if you haven't followed the rules. I am willing to forego entering shows to be judged on originality, for having the set-up I want. I hope everyone forgives me, but I just shot the finish paint on my BN-2 last saturday and it is a Daimler-Chrysler color called mineral grey. I was going to go for the gunmetal color that a few of the early BN-1 cars were apparently painted, but I could not find any reliable chips or pictures of this color. So I picked one I liked (I am very pleased with the results). I should also add that when I've deviated from what was original I was well aware of what I was changing (thanks to the people who've worked so hard to determine what was original), and of the folks who think I'm a heretic. I did my "restoration" for me, not for someone else. It is one more Healey 100 that is not dissolving into brown goo in someones backyard.
 
/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/savewave.gif Roscoe

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif---Keoke---- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thankyousign.gif------ /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif
 
------ /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/savewave.gif Greg:

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cheers.gif----Keoke--- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thankyousign.gif----- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif
 
---- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/savewave.gif SHG!

What has this to do with "Rotisserie Restorations ? I whish I had the room to use one when I did mine.--Keoke- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/confused.gif
 
This is, of course, a never-ending debate. This past week I visited the National Air & Space Museum in Washington and saw, again, the finest examples of aviation history preserved. If any of us were to own the last example of a Big Healey, then it would be wrong not to restore to as near as originality as possible, to preserve history, if nothing else. The same thing might be said of the first Big Healey, which of course has historical value. But few of our cars, Healeys or otherwise, are greatly historicaly significant. So if someone wants to use worm clamps for reliability on his daily driver, more power to you. If you obsess over whether each bolt head has a circle on it, or the sheet metal screws holding a bracket in the engine compartment are pozidrive, then bless you, too. If your business is really restoration, then do it right, for if a "reputable" restorer doesn't do it right, then all but those few who know for sure will believe that "wrong" is "right."

Our cars are not all museum pieces, nor are they normally just the family grocery-getter. They are a bit of both. My personal philosophy is to keep as close to originality as is "reasonably" possible. So yeah, I did have the original bolts re-plated, and did find pozidrive screws. But I also have electronic ignition. (Easily replaceable.) My wheels will be shiny chrome and stainless 60 or 72 spoke. Anyway, when all is said and done, this is a hobby, for goodness sake. While we're doing this, lets work on world peace too.
 
Keoke said:
What has this to do with "Rotisserie Restorations ?
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Keoke,

You know how stuff gets a little off track, so now its about every little thing. I started this because of the cars for sale claiming to be "restored" that were clearly worked but poorly restored.

Now, it's getting a bit defensive, even though it started on a different subject. But Anthony hasn't even gotten here yet, so who knows where this is heading.
 
SHG said:
One of the things that I cannot understand, however, is why so many Healeys have been "restored" wrong. I'm not talking about the ones with a V8 dropped in, or where intentional modifications were made, but where it is clear that a lot of work was done, a lot of money spent, but the results are simply wrong
Click to expand...
- "and anthony hasnt even gotten here yet" oh wrong again ye of rusted foot wells! vena venni vici! go on back to page #1 i thought id given a rather clear and reasonable explanation for your question already! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/savewave.gif
 
It is just symantics as to whether "restored" implies concorse or to nice driver. If they mean running and nicely painted with new interior, then fine. Let the pictures do the talking. There should be a level of detail as with coins. How about using the 5 ft, 10 ft, 20 ft as a refrence.
TH
 
anthony7777 said:
"and anthony hasnt even gotten here yet" oh wrong again ye of rusted foot wells! vena venni vici! go on back to page #1 i thought id given a rather clear and reasonable explanation for your question already! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/savewave.gif
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I love it when you talk latin, Vini, Vidi, Vici.

Me bad, but no rusted footwells, brother Anthony.
 
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