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I solved the oil-in-water problem but now I have a more serious problem. I bought this car with a freshly professionally rebuilt engine (in 1987) which had not been started since the build. The previous owner paid $2500 for this overhaul and then just installed it without starting it. At first it ran well, with no smoke at all. I ran then engine with a plywood baffle behind the car to prevent exhaust from filling the garage and noticed, as the exhaust was deflected into the sunlight, "sparkles" (not sparks) like very fine metal particles suspended in the air. I wondered where the metallic particles might be coming from, hoping that they were coming from the new exhaust components. I tried to picture in my mind engine parts being slowly filed to dust due to a possible lubrication problem. Last week, while setting the timing and carbs the engine started smoking bluish-white smoke, accumulating while idling and then billowing upon the opening of the throttle, and steady smoke at higher rpms. I just checked the compression--160-165-165-160, cold. I am about ready to pull the engine to check somebody else's mechanical ability. Does anyone have a clue or a test which might help me diagnosis this problem before dismantling?
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Smoking BN2
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Bruce Bowker
Obi Wan
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I would think a bit before dismantling engine. Since it has not been run for such a long time, perhaps a bit of breakin time might be in order and then see how it goes. Although if it has not been run you might want to at least look at the cylinder walls, which is still a bit of a job. You can also get a tool which allows you to see in the cylinder with the plug removed. Tad expensive tool but maybe a mechanic you know would allow you to do so if he has one. I wonder if there was some rust which heated up and blew out.
Or if the metallic particles are just something that will blow out eventually. Something in the exhaust system?
Oil pressure is good? Pull off the valve cover and see if you are at least getting oil up there first.
I am still thinking about this. If the engine has not been run for 17 years, rust on the cylinder walls is possible which could be the metallic sparkles and then could be clogging (or ruining - let's hope not) the rings which would cause smoke. Didn't you say in an earlier post you removed the head to check for water leaks or was that someone else?
More thoughts. Wonder if the valve seals have gone bad after 17 years?
Or if the metallic particles are just something that will blow out eventually. Something in the exhaust system?
Oil pressure is good? Pull off the valve cover and see if you are at least getting oil up there first.
I am still thinking about this. If the engine has not been run for 17 years, rust on the cylinder walls is possible which could be the metallic sparkles and then could be clogging (or ruining - let's hope not) the rings which would cause smoke. Didn't you say in an earlier post you removed the head to check for water leaks or was that someone else?
More thoughts. Wonder if the valve seals have gone bad after 17 years?
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What appeared to be metal particles was likely to actually be water droplets which are normal when starting a cold engine. One of the byproducts of combustion is water. If it were metal particles, the engine would be gone by now.
The most common cause of oil burning in these engines is worn or improperly installed rocker arm bushings or shaft. This floods the top end with oil which goes down the valve stems. A quick check is to warm the engine, let it idle, & remove the rocker cover. Each rocker arm should drip abount one to two drops per second. No more. No oil should come out of the top holes in the rockers. The fact that it was rebuilt does not mean that the rocker arm assembly was done or done correctly. New bushings can be of the wrong type (internal slot too long) or not correctly oriented in the arms & will still pass way too much oil. A company in N California does a very good job of rebuild on these & is very reasonably priced. If this turns out to be the problem, someone here can give you the URL.
D
The most common cause of oil burning in these engines is worn or improperly installed rocker arm bushings or shaft. This floods the top end with oil which goes down the valve stems. A quick check is to warm the engine, let it idle, & remove the rocker cover. Each rocker arm should drip abount one to two drops per second. No more. No oil should come out of the top holes in the rockers. The fact that it was rebuilt does not mean that the rocker arm assembly was done or done correctly. New bushings can be of the wrong type (internal slot too long) or not correctly oriented in the arms & will still pass way too much oil. A company in N California does a very good job of rebuild on these & is very reasonably priced. If this turns out to be the problem, someone here can give you the URL.
D
It was I who had removed the head and while demonstrating the action of the pistons had pumped oil to the top of the block. Some of the oil drained into the water jacket. While sitting in the previous owner's garage the head was not tightened and moisture was able to penetrate the head gasket, rusting the steel side and corroding the copper side, necessitating the purchase of a new head gasket. The cylinder bores were clean--everything looked good. A further update since yesterday--while running the engine(after my initial post) I paid closer attention. While warming up I checked for 'sparkles' and noticed some, but not as many as before. While cold the engine did not smoke. While adjusting the carbs for idle mixture after reaching operating temp, I noticed that lifting the carb piston with the piston lifting device I could not get the engine to respond as it should have, leading me to wonder if the jet/needle size is correct. Does anyone have the correct sizes? The SU book states that, while lifting the piston, the engine rpm should rise and then settle back to slightly higher than normal if the mixture is correct. I could not achieve this condition. No matter which way I turned the mixture adjusting nut lifting the piston produced a much worse idle and the smoke got decidedly darker, indicating too much fuel--any guidance? Regarding oil flow to the head--while running I can remove the valve cover and see what appears to be an adequate supply of oil coming out of the rocker holes. Checking/replacing the valve seals is surely a good idea to do before I take the entire engine apart--ageing of the seals is something I had not considered. More to come....thanks.
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
leading me to wonder if the jet/needle size is correct. Does anyone have the correct sizes? The SU book states that, while lifting the piston, the engine rpm should rise and then settle back to slightly higher than normal if the mixture is correct. Regarding oil flow to the head--while running I can remove the valve cover and see what appears to be an adequate supply of oil coming out of the rocker holes. Checking/replacing the valve seals is surely a good idea to do before I take the entire engine apart--ageing of the seals is something I had not considered. More to come....thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
The jets should be .090". The needles should be QW. I think you do have carb problems. Could be adjustment, wear, or wrong parts.
You have more than one problem. Taking the entire engine apart is not likely to solve anything.
Describe an "adequate supply of oil". As mentioned, too much oil is a problem. Oil is NOT supposed to be coming out of the top rocker holes. On properly set up rockers, the top holes are sealed off unless the bushings are severely worn. Only a few drips from the bottom. The stock BN2 does not have real valve seals as such & is very sensitive to too much oil on top.
I hate to bother you with repetition, if you want me to be quiet, just say so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
D
leading me to wonder if the jet/needle size is correct. Does anyone have the correct sizes? The SU book states that, while lifting the piston, the engine rpm should rise and then settle back to slightly higher than normal if the mixture is correct. Regarding oil flow to the head--while running I can remove the valve cover and see what appears to be an adequate supply of oil coming out of the rocker holes. Checking/replacing the valve seals is surely a good idea to do before I take the entire engine apart--ageing of the seals is something I had not considered. More to come....thanks.
[/ QUOTE ]
The jets should be .090". The needles should be QW. I think you do have carb problems. Could be adjustment, wear, or wrong parts.
You have more than one problem. Taking the entire engine apart is not likely to solve anything.
Describe an "adequate supply of oil". As mentioned, too much oil is a problem. Oil is NOT supposed to be coming out of the top rocker holes. On properly set up rockers, the top holes are sealed off unless the bushings are severely worn. Only a few drips from the bottom. The stock BN2 does not have real valve seals as such & is very sensitive to too much oil on top.
I hate to bother you with repetition, if you want me to be quiet, just say so. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
D
I don't mind repetition. Usually that is the only way we learn something. When preparing the engine for first start I ensured oil circulation by noting the presence of oil pressure(50-60 psi) and the presence of oil coming out of the rocker holes....I just now went out and started the engine, with the valve cover off. There was considerable oil forming a small 'hill' of oil about 1/8 inch high coming from the hole in the center of the rockers(the pivot point). You mentioned "Each rocker arm should drip abount one to two drops per second. No more. No oil should come out of the top holes in the rockers." Where else can or does the oil flow from?(I went back and reread you post where you stated that there are bottom holes also.) In a matter of about 1 minute oil had surrounded the base of the valve springs and I am sure that oil is able to 'pool' around the guides. My oil was not squirting like small block chevy rockers do, but there was a considerable return. If there is no umbrella type seal I can see where I might have a problem. How do I determine if the bushing are in need of help? Is there a suitable method of restricting the oil flow? Why, if there is a bottom hole in the rocker, is oil only emerging from the top hole in mine? As soon as I post this I am going to remove a rocker for a closer examination. Thanks for the carburetor info. I will check that also.
Another update: just checked one of the carb needles--it is an 'AJ'. I have a spare carburetor which happens to have a 'QW' needle. The QW is about 1/4 inch longer! Might account for some of the richness(maybe all of it). I also dismantled the rocker assembly--found some kind of crud partially blocking the numbers 1 and 8 feed holes in the shaft, which accounts for the flow from those two rockers being less than the others(I didn't mention that observation in previous posts). Inspection of the rocker bushings revealed what I would consider acceptable minimal wear, with no ovality of the bore and little, if any 'rocking' movement on the shaft. The shaft shows shininess on the bottom, which is its bearing surface, but no measurable wear. Maybe you can explain to me why there should be no oil flow through the top rocker hole as there is no method of controlling the flow if everything is good. There is no pressure controlling device for the top end and, if there is nothing restricting the flow, it will be whatever it is. I noticed that the flow from the top hole allows oil to flow down the rocker to the top of the valve and that, according to the book, there is a doughnut seal housed in a 'seal housing' just under the keepers. That will be my next thing to check. I can picture oil flowing past the keepers and down the valve stem if that seal is bad or not there--maybe that is the reason some people plug the top hole--just gotta set up some compressed air through the sparkplug hole.
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QW vs AJ needles ----
The AJ needle will be about the same at low & high idle. The AJ will be considerably richer at mid to high power levels, & about the same at maximum power levels. This could very well account for some of the "rich" problem.
The rocker arms-----
The bushings have a slot in them that, when properly installed & viewed with the adjuster end to your right, should extend from about 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock. I didn't intend to imply that there was a hole in the bottom. The oil pressure feed is from holes in the bottom of the shaft. (6 o'clock) The slot does not extend to the top hole, (stops at 8 o'clock) so the top hole is sealed from direct contact with the slot pressure. The other end of the slot at 2 o'clock, extends just past a drilled hole that feeds the pushrods. (The slot lets oil feed in on the bottom & supply the pushrod feed hole.
Leakage in the bushing to shaft clearance allows enough flow to lubricate the bushing & shaft. Clearance between shaft & bushing should be 1/2 to 1 1/2 thousandths. No more. This small flow around the bushing is carried down by gravity & drips from the bottom sides of the rocker arm. The bearing clearance leakage flow should be small enough that the top hole doesn't show much oil. The "pressure controlling device" for the rocker top is the previously mentioned tight bushing clearance.
The flow checks must be done with a thoroughly warmed engine & oil & at a fast idle speed.
One problem that has come up recently is that some replacement bushings have the slot cut so long that it is impossible to have the top hole sealed.
If the bushings are not installed with this exact slot orientation There will be problems.
After the bushings are installed the pushrod feed holes must be drilled at the 2 o'clock end of the slot. The pushrod adjusters are removed, the small plugs in the ends of the rockers removed & the holes drilled through the bushing. Then the plugs replaced.
Rocker arm specialists will correctly rebuild your whole assembly for about 100 bucks:
https://www.rockerarms.com/
When putting things back together, read this prior topic first. It may save you some problems;
https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=10226&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#10226
Good luck,
D
The AJ needle will be about the same at low & high idle. The AJ will be considerably richer at mid to high power levels, & about the same at maximum power levels. This could very well account for some of the "rich" problem.
The rocker arms-----
The bushings have a slot in them that, when properly installed & viewed with the adjuster end to your right, should extend from about 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock. I didn't intend to imply that there was a hole in the bottom. The oil pressure feed is from holes in the bottom of the shaft. (6 o'clock) The slot does not extend to the top hole, (stops at 8 o'clock) so the top hole is sealed from direct contact with the slot pressure. The other end of the slot at 2 o'clock, extends just past a drilled hole that feeds the pushrods. (The slot lets oil feed in on the bottom & supply the pushrod feed hole.
Leakage in the bushing to shaft clearance allows enough flow to lubricate the bushing & shaft. Clearance between shaft & bushing should be 1/2 to 1 1/2 thousandths. No more. This small flow around the bushing is carried down by gravity & drips from the bottom sides of the rocker arm. The bearing clearance leakage flow should be small enough that the top hole doesn't show much oil. The "pressure controlling device" for the rocker top is the previously mentioned tight bushing clearance.
The flow checks must be done with a thoroughly warmed engine & oil & at a fast idle speed.
One problem that has come up recently is that some replacement bushings have the slot cut so long that it is impossible to have the top hole sealed.
If the bushings are not installed with this exact slot orientation There will be problems.
After the bushings are installed the pushrod feed holes must be drilled at the 2 o'clock end of the slot. The pushrod adjusters are removed, the small plugs in the ends of the rockers removed & the holes drilled through the bushing. Then the plugs replaced.
Rocker arm specialists will correctly rebuild your whole assembly for about 100 bucks:
https://www.rockerarms.com/
When putting things back together, read this prior topic first. It may save you some problems;
https://www.britishcarforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=10226&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#10226
Good luck,
D
Healey 100
Jedi Warrior
Offline
I can't add too much to this thread except to say that rings can definitely get stuck in the grooves, especially when they sit in an engine for 17 years. Obviously, the car has compression, so some of the rings are effective, but not necessarily all of them.
Convince yourself the rocker arm situation is OK then get some miles on this engine: monitor oil, water consumption and keep your eye on the temperature. Chances are it will improve with use, I think this engine may be suffering from too much sitting. But if not the real problem (leaking head gasket, bad rings, cracked head, etc.) will grow enough to give you some more leads. You mentioned white smoke, that bothers me the most about your engine. That could be a head gasket or cracked head. But it should show up in coolant loss.
Good luck and happy Healeying!
Bill.
Convince yourself the rocker arm situation is OK then get some miles on this engine: monitor oil, water consumption and keep your eye on the temperature. Chances are it will improve with use, I think this engine may be suffering from too much sitting. But if not the real problem (leaking head gasket, bad rings, cracked head, etc.) will grow enough to give you some more leads. You mentioned white smoke, that bothers me the most about your engine. That could be a head gasket or cracked head. But it should show up in coolant loss.
Good luck and happy Healeying!
Bill.
mvanderploeg
Senior Member
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
No matter which way I turned the mixture adjusting nut lifting the piston produced a much worse idle and the smoke got decidedly darker, indicating too much fuel--any guidance?
[/ QUOTE ]
I had an identical problem with my Longbridge BN4 (Same "H" type carbs). The adjusting nut turned out to be frozen to the jet bearing assembly. When I turned the nut, the whole assembly was turning, meaning that the nut was essentially doing nothing to change the mixture. This was occurring on a pair of carbs that were rebuilt six months earlier.
No matter which way I turned the mixture adjusting nut lifting the piston produced a much worse idle and the smoke got decidedly darker, indicating too much fuel--any guidance?
[/ QUOTE ]
I had an identical problem with my Longbridge BN4 (Same "H" type carbs). The adjusting nut turned out to be frozen to the jet bearing assembly. When I turned the nut, the whole assembly was turning, meaning that the nut was essentially doing nothing to change the mixture. This was occurring on a pair of carbs that were rebuilt six months earlier.
Johnny
Darth Vader
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
..exhaust from filling the garage and noticed, as the exhaust was deflected into the sunlight, "sparkles" (not sparks) like very fine metal particles suspended in the air. I wondered where the metallic particles might be coming from, hoping that they were coming from the new exhaust components.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I know what the problem may be. I had the same thing happen to me. Remove the air cleaners from the carbs. Inside you'll find a steel mesh that needs to be replaced. The steel mesh breaks down over the years. It is being sucked into the engine and blown out the exhaust.
..exhaust from filling the garage and noticed, as the exhaust was deflected into the sunlight, "sparkles" (not sparks) like very fine metal particles suspended in the air. I wondered where the metallic particles might be coming from, hoping that they were coming from the new exhaust components.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think I know what the problem may be. I had the same thing happen to me. Remove the air cleaners from the carbs. Inside you'll find a steel mesh that needs to be replaced. The steel mesh breaks down over the years. It is being sucked into the engine and blown out the exhaust.
tahoe healey
Yoda
Offline
If you remove the piston cover and look at the jets while ajusting them up and down yu can tell if they are stuck or not.
OK, I'm back with good news. After replacing the 'AJ' needles with 'QW's all the problems cleared up! Who'd a thunk it? Now, with a warm engine there is no visible smoke, even at higher rpms. I must do some final fine tuning of ignition timing and carburetor settings, but I am satisfied that there is nothing broken or worn out. I still don't know what the 'sparkles' were--maybe the overly rich mixture was washing the cylinder walls of all residual lube and causing wear? I don't know, but I will take the advice given and monitor everything. Does anyone know what a typical 100 engine should show for compression? I was surprised at 165 psi(higher than I expected). Regarding the rocker shaft and bushing dissertation--thanks, it was very informative and explained how the oil flow can be regulated. Now I must try to determine why the shaft in my car is drilled differently than how you described. The oil distribution holes are not on the bottom of the shaft, but are at the 3 O'clock position, looking forward(sparkplug side). I can't recall from memory the arrangement of the bushing holes, but I think that they are such that there is not a position of the rocker that blocks the channel in the bushing. I'll take the forward rocker off and check it and try to figure it out and then decide whether it is something that needs to be changed. I will also check out the links you gave me. Thanks.
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
The rocker arms-----
The bushings have a slot in them that, when properly installed & viewed with the adjuster end to your right, should extend from about 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock. I didn't intend to imply that there was a hole in the bottom. The oil pressure feed is from holes in the bottom of the shaft. (6 o'clock) The slot does not extend to the top hole, (stops at 8 o'clock) so the top hole is sealed from direct contact with the slot pressure. The other end of the slot at 2 o'clock, extends just past a drilled hole that feeds the pushrods. (The slot lets oil feed in on the bottom & supply the pushrod feed hole.
D
[/ QUOTE ]
I just took one of my rocker arms apart to see for sure. I lied, sorry.
The slot extends from the pushrod drilling at 2:30 o'clock around the bottom of the bushing to 9 o'clock. The oil feed holes in the shaft are at 9 o'clock. Not 6 o'clock as I said. There is .002" total clearance between rockers & shaft. All viewed from the front & looking toward rear. I think this makes the shaft holes in the same place as you describe. Glad that the carb needles corrected the problem.
165 is a bit higher than I would have expected also. I would think around 145 at sea level. It depends on what might have been done in the past to raise the compression ratio. The gage calibration might be off, or the chambers may be filled with carbon which would raise the compression. If so, with the carbs corrected the excess carbon will burn out after while & everything ok. Sounds like things are coming around.
D
The rocker arms-----
The bushings have a slot in them that, when properly installed & viewed with the adjuster end to your right, should extend from about 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock. I didn't intend to imply that there was a hole in the bottom. The oil pressure feed is from holes in the bottom of the shaft. (6 o'clock) The slot does not extend to the top hole, (stops at 8 o'clock) so the top hole is sealed from direct contact with the slot pressure. The other end of the slot at 2 o'clock, extends just past a drilled hole that feeds the pushrods. (The slot lets oil feed in on the bottom & supply the pushrod feed hole.
D
[/ QUOTE ]
I just took one of my rocker arms apart to see for sure. I lied, sorry.
The slot extends from the pushrod drilling at 2:30 o'clock around the bottom of the bushing to 9 o'clock. The oil feed holes in the shaft are at 9 o'clock. Not 6 o'clock as I said. There is .002" total clearance between rockers & shaft. All viewed from the front & looking toward rear. I think this makes the shaft holes in the same place as you describe. Glad that the carb needles corrected the problem.
165 is a bit higher than I would have expected also. I would think around 145 at sea level. It depends on what might have been done in the past to raise the compression ratio. The gage calibration might be off, or the chambers may be filled with carbon which would raise the compression. If so, with the carbs corrected the excess carbon will burn out after while & everything ok. Sounds like things are coming around.
D