Spitfire Rebuilt vs repro Spit starter?

[jdubois]

So I've got to replace my starter, and I see Moss is selling both rebuilt and new reproduction starters. VB seems to be selling just new ones, which I'm assuming are the same repro ones Moss is selling. Anybody have an opinions on which is better? My initial reaction was to get a rebuilt original, but Moss is out of stock.

 

[YankeeTR]

I like the originals...after all the last one was probably 30 years old, right?

I'll take an original over some off-shore Asian built knock-off...there are many cheap Chinese units masquarading as quality parts.

Why not have a local starter repair shop re-do your original?

 

[jdubois]

Hey, that's a good thought! It turns out they have no idea on lead time for the rebuilt ones. So I went ahead and got the repro to get the car back on the road. But since there's no core for the repro ones, I can still take my original to a local shop.

 

[Andrew Mace]

What was wrong with the old starter? Did you try the local shop first? Most rebuilders are familiar with Lucas units, which are really quite simple and parts are available. At least here in upstate New York, turnaround time is pretty quick as well.

I'm not sure how rebuildable the "repro" starters are or whether the parts are interchangeable with old Lucas parts or otherwise readily available.

 

[jdubois]

Don't know exactly what was wrong with it. You were right, Andrew, the initial problem was that the drive gear was all gummed up. But after manhandling it, the starter died completely. My best guess is the negative lead wire broke off inside the starter. But after looking inside, I didn't want to mess around with it. I didn't even think about getting it rebuilt locally since the ones I could order from Moss/VB were like $100. That looked cheap. I'm used to Ferrari prices. A 308 starter is $800-$1000!

I guess I'll call around locally and see what I can find. If somebody can do it, I'll either return the repro one I bought or just hang on to it. Never know when it might be handy.

 

[jdubois]

Ok, found a local place: Sexton Associates, 481 Hartford Tpke, Shrewsbury, MA. Taking the starter over to them tomorrow for a look-see and a quote.

 

[Guest]

I like the originals...after all the last one was probably 30 years old, right?

I'll take an original over some off-shore Asian built knock-off...there are many cheap Chinese units masquerading as quality parts.

Why not have a local starter repair shop re-do your original?

How do we know when we are getting Asian knockoff starters? Are the Chinese really tooling up to make a hundred or so British knockoff starters each year? Man, they are good industrious people!

 

[YankeeTR]

I like the originals...after all the last one was probably 30 years old, right?

I'll take an original over some off-shore Asian built knock-off...there are many cheap Chinese units masquerading as quality parts.

Why not have a local starter repair shop re-do your original?

How do we know when we are getting Asian knockoff starters? Are the Chinese really tooling up to make a hundred or so British knockoff starters each year? Man, they are good industrious people!

There are a lot of Hitachi, Denso and other Jap-branded starters that are Chinese knockoffs...the hot rod and muscle car markets are filled with these. There are ways of telling legit starters from the junk but most guys don't know until the starter craps out in 3 months.

If you look at the way these 'high torque' starters are built you'll see that most all applications use the same starter and only the alumnum adaptor plate and the starter drive is applicaton specific. One motor fits many different makes and models...easy to make one fit any application.

I talked to a couple of guys who build/rebuild race/hot rod and muscle car starters and even they have to keep an eye on the motors they buy because the knock offs are everywhere. If you see one starter selling for $189.00 and another "exact same" starter for $89.00 somethng is wrong...

Another thing about the Chinese...they will tool up for very small parts runs. I often get emails from Taiwan and Communist China offering to give me a quote for any automotiive parts that I may need manufactured in quantities as low as 25. Their costs are so low and the dollar exchange rate so screwed up that they can afford to do this. I have belonged to SEMA in the past and I sometmes attend a major wholesale hot rod trade show so I got on somebodys email list.

 

[vettedog72]

I have had some pretty good luck with some Japanese starters for non Triumphs. On the other hand, if the commentator and armature are not bad, I would have the starter rebuilt.

 

[jdubois]

The new starter came in, and I got it in the car. No indication what country it came from. It does say Lucas on it, but don't know if that means it's really a Lucas or not. Seems to work as advertised, which means the car is on the road again /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif, but the starter definitely doesn't look the same as the old one /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif . I've got the original one over at an alternator shop to get a quote on rebuilding it.

 

[jdubois]

Well, the guy from the alternator shop called back and said he couldn't fix it. He even called a few other places and nobody wanted to touch it. Apparently the field coils are aluminum instead of copper and nobody is set up to handle that. Even called a few of the local British car shops and they all said they never had them rebuilt, just put new ones in.

So, I guess I'll just shelf the old one and hope I run across somebody someday who can do it.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Well, the guy from the alternator shop called back and said he couldn't fix it....

/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

Too bad, but you might take some solace in the fact that it likely was NOT the original. You'd noted in another post that It's a model 25083J and the coding underneath is "M35G 1 11 6[?]" . Most originals would've been a 25149. Both are model M35G starters. Offhand, I'm not that familiar with the 25083, which is probably just a much later supercession number. The starter used on the Spitfire was used on a very large number of British cars. Possibly in later years, Lucas found a way to make fewer and cheaper-quality starters to fit these cars (Al field coils sound cheaper to me than copper, for example)!

 

[70herald]

I wouldn't be surprised if the repro was Indian made. They were building /using cars with these engines on a regular basis much more recently than the rest of the world, so they are still tooled up to make spares. Lots of Lucas / Girling parts come from India for that reason.

 

[jdubois]

Most originals would've been a 25149.

Hmm, interesting... I was looking at the parts manual on the Heritage Motor Centre CD that I just bought (and grumbling about the stupid broken DRM on it that won't let me use it on my Mac) and it lists 25022 or 25079 for the starter motor all the way through the 1500, although the updated parts microfiches for the MkIV and 1500 list an alternative inertia type starter, 200535.

As another piece of information, I noticed the VB catalog lists five types of starters as original: 25022, 25065, 25079, 25085, and the one you mention, 25149. Interesting that mine, 25083, isn't listed.

So... I guess I'll keep my eyes out for a rebuilt 25022 or a 25079, so I can some day put mine back to at least matching what the original parts manuals say.

 

[Andrew Mace]

Most originals would've been a 25149.

Hmm, interesting...Heritage Motor Centre CD that I just bought... lists 25022 or 25079 for the starter motor all the way through the 1500....

As another piece of information, I noticed the VB catalog lists five types of starters as original: 25022, 25065, 25079, 25085, and the one you mention, 25149. Interesting that mine, 25083, isn't listed....

I don't have any catalogues "late" enough to list the 25083, which I still assume must be a later "rationalization" part number. My Lucas Popular Spares 1962-71 is where I got the 25149, although a penciled notation in same says "or 25079"! And the Lucas 1963 Standard & Triumph catalogue gives the 25079. And, according to my Lucas Master Catalogue 400E, 1945-60, 25022 was used on later Mayflowers, Standard and Triumph 10s and early Heralds!

Like any of that helps. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[Bugeye58]

Here's a good website for cross referencing starters, alternators, etc.

https://woodauto.com/Unit.aspx?Man=LUCAS&Ref=25149


You'll see that the 25083J is a sub for the 25149, among others.
Jeff

 

[jdubois]

Like any of that helps. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

It's all fascinating at least, if only helpful in confusing me to no end /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[Andrew Mace]

It's all fascinating at least, if only helpful in confusing me to no end /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

And what fascinates me (and confuses me at times) is not that today's parts suppliers can't agree (I expect that), but that Triumph and its electrical supplier Lucas didn't always agree! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif