Question about medium format film cameras

[William]

So I've just bought my first medium format (120mm) film camera and a few rolls of film, and it's on its way from B&H Photo. I've never shot medium format (only 35mm and digital), but its something I've wanted to try for years. So I've got a few questions.

I've been reading about it, and many websites Ive seen say to do all your film loading and unloading in the dark. It sounds like the camera doesnt rewind into the cartridge like 35mm film does. So does this mean you can't re-load "in the field" if you can't get into a dark room or have a darkbag? How do you store the film after you change out the old roll?

Second, Ive seen it recommended that you cover up the red window on the back, because the window still fogs the film despite the paper back. Maybe that's just a function of the kind of camera I'm buying.

Anything else I should know?

BTW-The camera I'm getting is the famously cruddy Holga 120-the basic model's only $22! I'm getting the deluxe model with a color flash, at a whopping $37. With four rolls of film it's only around fifty bucks. I've read so much about these cameras that I just have to give it a whirl!

-William

 

[SunbeamTom]

You'll at least need a "dark bag" also need to practice a few times so you can load with out watching I can't imagine a $50 medium format camera including 4 rolls of film. All the med formats I've used the film rewinds back on to the spool the paper backing protects the film, although it's been a while since I've shot 120. GOOD LUCK

Tom J

 

[DrEntropy]

I can only groan here.

120 (2.25"x 2.25") film is a mainstay format of days gone by. Not of MY choosing... I've a BAGFULL of Mamiya C330 gear, chased brides, starting with 4x5 Speed Graphics and roll film 'blads too. That thing is a... a...

well, you will NOT realise the benefits of medium format film with it. The business about the "red" counter window and darkbags is likely true for that "camera".


I ain't trying to be harsh or smug or in any way "ugly" here. If you want to find the value and quality of medium format film cameras, get a REAL one to start with. That ain't one.

Do more homework.

Hasselblad, Bronica, Mamiya, Pentax... Go to flea markets. Dig around in attics.

 

[William]

I dont mean to be smartalecky, Doc, but I did considerable homework on this. I first read about them in one of the big glossy British photo mags, and fell in love with the effects of the cheap plastic meniscus lens of the Holga. The "faults" of the cheapo Holga (odd focusing, vignetting, etc.) are the appeal. If I was only concerned with pin-sharp enlargements I'd stick with slide film or my digital cameras, hunt out a used 'Blad or something at the fleamarket and hope it wasn't abused.

Besides I've always liked the old snapshots in my Gramma's photo boxes that were taken on less than ideal cameras, with vignetting, narrow focus, and so on. And while I know how to do that stuff in Photoshop, most of the time it looks like its been Photoshopped.

Wikipedia's entry on Holga

Website on Holgas and other cheap,weird cameras

Check out the galleries on that second link. You're right, this is a laughably cheap camera that probably shouldn't work. But anyone can take a good photo with a good camera. It takes real skill to take a good photo with a hunk of crap like a Holga, and that of course is the challenge.

Having said that, I was really just asking for advice on handling this kind of film. It's a new medium for me.

-Wm.

 

[MoPho]

If I recall correctly, you only have to unload a Holga in the dark ( I used mine twice before I gave up on it- it's an acquired taste to put it politely). The reason is that it does not wind the film tight enough to keep light from leaking in. You will also need to keep in a dark bag until the film goes into the darkroom for processing.
On the other hand, some people find that the light leaks are part of the charm.

Mine was a real PITA to use as it was very difficult to advance the film through the camera, which resulted in double exposures, torn film and aggravation.
Other people I knew loved theirs and took some cool pics with it

You do not need to load or unload in the dark, or tape up a real medium format camera as they wind the film and the paper surround tight and they don't leak light.

Doc is right, while the Holga will produce interesting and fun effects, you will be missing out on the real beauty of MF cameras and film, which is the sharpness and the incredible tonal range they produce.

That said, I have not touched the $7k worth of MF cameras I have in 5 years since going digital, and I make my living as a photographer.


Also check out https://www.lensbabies.com, they can be used on a digital camera to produce interesting effects

A lot of the effects created by the Holga can be recreated in Photoshop too


Good luck and have fun with it

 

[swift6]

Woo Hoo! Welcome to the wonderful land of 'Toy Cameras' William. It sounds as if you have done your research and know what you are getting into. Which is half the battle with these cameras. All the little annoyances are part of the 'charm' of working with these cameras. I've been 'playing' with them for over ten years now. While I have two Holga's, with and without flash, I prefer my Diana (which is what the Holga's are patterned off of).

Morgan is pretty much right on with why you need at least subdued light to change the film on these (loose rolls). I have found that a paper wedge spring (folded paper) can add enough tension on the unexposed roll to maintain tension and therefore a tighter take up roll. Still a good idea to change film out of broad daylight though. A windowless bathroom or closet can also work just fine, as long as you don't drop the film onto the floor. If your 'out in the field', a blanket or large jacket can work as well. Your not working with sheet film after all.

I tend to tape all of the seams on my toy cameras as well. I'm not a big fan of 'light leak effects', just the lens effects. Speaking of which... the exposure fall off on some Holga's are so bad that it can seem pretty heavy handed in its effect. If that happens, keep the 6X4.5 mask in and you should still get some limited exposure fall off effects. You can also 'open up' the 6X4.5 mask with a little 'file work' too and make your own 'custom' mask. The red lens/film counter viewer can sometimes leak on Holga's but not always. Each Holga is a little different with regards to their light leaks and lens effects (same with Diana's and their many clones).

Apertures and shutter speeds are also only a close guess with these cameras. Don't expect a perfect roll right out of the box (though it can be closer with Holga's than Diana's, better manufacturing quality control if you can believe it). My Diana has three aperture settings (sun, sun/cloud, cloud) and two shutter speed settings (instant and bulb, instant can range from 1/30 to 1/125 on different cameras) . These cameras can really force you to learn about visual lighting situations (direct light vs. open shade) and how it pertains to your apertures/shutter speed/film speed/developing processes, parallax correction, zone focusing and particular camera etc...

Here are some examples of my Diana work. My preferred film is Ilford HP5Plus and preferred film developer is a Photographers Formulary version of a D-23 compensating developer. These are all 'straight prints', no burning or dodging, print exposure is to 'max black' like Ansel used to teach.

A street scene in Florence Italy, printed on a very warm Ilford fiber based paper.

An Alley(Viccolo) doorway in Cortona Italy. Printed on Agfa and Selenium toned (not to the split).

These images of the DeSoto and the Studebaker were printed on Bergger paper (really sweet stuff but $$$) and selenium toned to the split. The chrome was not toned though, it was covered with rubber cement before toning and then removed afterwards.

Infra-Red film can also be fun. This image is from a firefighter training academy. Konica Infra-Red (this stuff is barely Infra-Red but it gets there ) on Ilford paper.

Again, welcome to the world of 'Toy Cameras'. Experiment and enjoy. When you start to get it down, they really can help you generate some wonderful images.

Cheers!

 

[aerog]

I think MoPho covered it - tightness on the spool makes a difference. I've had several Mamiyas and Bronicas over the years - none of which had to be loaded, or unloaded in the dark though. I still have one of each that hasn't been used in years.

If you're using paper-backed 120/220 film you do NOT have to load/unload in the dark. The film won't get pulled through to the take-up reel until you advance to the first frame. After the last frame is taken you'll have to advance awhile to get the entire rear-leader off the supply-reel. As long as the film is tight on the spool it'll be fine (you'll notice there's an adhesive strip at the end of the roll, that lets you can seal the film spool tight and carry the film in the light).

 

[Twosheds]

Nice Dianatypes, Shawn.

 

[swift6]

Loose rolls are generally not a problem with Mamiya's, Bronica's, Hasselblad's, Rollei's etc...

However, William is getting a Holga. Which is a whole different can of beans. It is very difficult for the Holga to hold a roll of film firmly. There just isn't enough built into it to do the job properly.

Here is a Holga (w/flash)

Here is the inside of the camera, ready to be loaded. You can see my paper tension 'spring'(yes it is a 6-Pack card). Without something to keep tension on the unexposed roll, it will just unroll all on its own. Which doesn't let it roll up very tight on the take up end either.

This is the inside with the 6X4.5 mask removed. Batteries are for the flash.

And then, here is my Diana. Sharp eyes will see that I have added a filter ring to the lens barrel. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[swift6]

Nice Dianatypes, Shawn.

Thanks! I've never quite heard that term, but I like it. Gives it an 'air' of credibility. The Diana does date back to the late 1950's. Though the above term might make one think it was from the 1850's. Still like it though. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[martx-5]

If you want to get into medium format, it would seem to me that you should just look for a used YashicaMat 124 They could most likely be had for not much more then you paid for the Holga. Stay away from the "G's", as they want crazy money for them. At least then you've got a real sevicable camera with a real lens. I think what you find quaint about the Holga, you will soon get tired of.

 

[DrEntropy]

I'm outta this. Here's my "eyewash" shelf in the hovel:

 

[William]

Shawn-I actually had a Diana at one point (or a clone thereof-it still had the turquoise top) but never used it. I dropped it and busted it clear in half-thirty year old Bakelite is pretty brittle after all. I don't think the shutter was working correctly anyway (well, as correctly as a Diana can work I suppose).

Many years ago I had a really cheap, probably Russian or Chinese made all plastic 35mm camera, the 35mm version of the Diana I suppose. It took photos surprisingly like Dianas or Holgas, which I thought was really very neat. All my photo club friends (I was in high school at the time) thought I was crazy for thinking that photos that were so obviously "flawed" with light streaks and stuff were artful. The photo teacher didn't agree either. I didn't know that there was (or would be) a cult of people out there who thought like me, until I saw an article in a magazine about the Holga camera.

You know the new ones come with a 6x6 mask as well as the six forty-five? No more filing work (unless you want to).

-William

 

[DrEntropy]

Not offended! Just can't figure the reason to go thru all the steps necessary and use a milk-bottle bottom to start out with: Add the effects in a darkroom or with a proggy after the image is made, would be my choice.

And I've built cameras, too. From "pinhole" ones to an 8x10 Polaroid (with an internal 45* front-surface mirror!) for "special" application.

It's just the Pro Photojournalist in me...

I had a "conflict" just using SpotTone on a print... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/devilgrin.gif

 

[swift6]

Since I approach photography from both a Commercial and a Fine Art perspective, one point that I like to stress to newer photographers is that cameras are simply tools. Just as enlargers, programs, chemistry, media type (film vs. digital) etc... are also just tools.

When I showed up at a local 'collectors' yard (where I photographed the DeSoto, Studebaker and others) the owner wanted to know if I was going to use a 'real' camera or not. I had to chuckle because I fully intended on using my Diana. I had some other work with me, examples of other Diana projects, and was able to convince him to let me photograph some of his 'collection' with my 'toy' camera. I gave him a print of the DeSoto and he thumbtacked it to his message board. While I cringed when he pushed the thumb tack through an archivally processed and toned fiber print, you would understand it was actually very complimentary if you could have seen how he kept the rest of his house.

Some times I absolutely feel that I have to use the Diana, other times nothing but my Hasselblad can do the subject justice. Occasionally I have to pull out the Contax or one of the Nikon's. That is the key to not gettng tired of their "quaint" effects.

When a Diana/Holga is used to its strengths, there tends to be a purity to the 'effects', specific to the imperfetions, that are much harder to duplicate in a program or on an enlarger. Not immpossible, but difficult.

For images to be successful, Commercial/Fine Art/Snapshot, they have to communicate a message. Regardless of how the image is created. In that regard, a Diana/Holga is just as much a 'real' camera as a Hassleblad/Mamiya.

I'm sure my 'edge' treatment on my Italy photos from my Diana gets Doc's phototjournalistic sensibilities all up in a tizzy too. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[swift6]

Shawn-I actually had a Diana at one point (or a clone thereof-it still had the turquoise top) but never used it. I dropped it and busted it clear in half-thirty year old Bakelite is pretty brittle after all.


You know the new ones come with a 6x6 mask as well as the six forty-five? No more filing work (unless you want to).

-William

William,

I dread dropping my Diana for that very reason.

Do they actually come with a mask for 6X6 now? With the older cameras you just remove the 6X4.5 mask and it exposed a full 6X6 area. I'm thinking of doing a little creative filing on my Holga's 6X4.5 mask. I like making my own full frame negative carriers as well. If I want a clean edge I'll use cropping tools. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[DrEntropy]

I'm sure my 'edge' treatment on my Italy photos from my Diana gets Doc's phototjournalistic sensibilities all up in a tizzy too.

<gigglesnort!> You said: "sensibilities"...

I'm not as 'purist' as all that. Can appreciate 'artsy' images... even have a few of my own (gasp!). Just wouldn't "fuss" trying to achieve 'effect' with something I'd have to spend time 'n money on, if the image in mind could be achieved in the darkroom... I have LBC's to knobble on 'n play with instead.

As another anticdote: I had a job to shoot a credit card embossing facility for a bank a number of years back. In Miami. Showed up with Nikons, Bogen sticks and a case full of Vivitar strobe gear/stands... The "contact" was all ~concerned~ 'cause he was expecting an entourage with numerous 'blads, Sof-Boxes 'n Photogenic's, I guess... 'dog 'n pony show.' "Didn't you bring any equipment?!"

Told him there was a small stellar event in the lighting case and the 'chromes he'd get would be more than the tri-fold brochure he was making as an envelope stuffer would require. End result was payment and more jobs from 'em.

I'm not as 'misperceptive' as that re: Hloga/Diana, just not enthusiastic over the effort/result ratio.


And I ~like~ the Italy images, BTW, Shawn. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[swift6]

Thanks Doc,

I can understand the effort vs. reward argument. I just happen to have spent long enough on the effort with my Diana that part of the reward is now very low effort. It took a while to reach that point though. By low effort I mean success in one print with only one test strip. Lessons learned well while I was learning the Zone System. My Zone System final exam was one piece of film, one test strip and one piece of paper. All three pieces had to be displayed. If you had to repeat/use more material it would lower your grade one category each time. I like the process though. Glutton for punishment and all that. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

My personal record for strobe lighting is @36,000 watt seconds from 16 packs. But that is a whole different story. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

While in Italy I shot mostly 120 B&W film. Ilford HP5Plus in my Diana. Bergger and Ilford HP4Plus in my Hasselblad. I also had a 35mm snapshot camera that fit very nicely in my vest pocket and weighed next to nothing. The camera bag I use for my Hasselblad looks more like an attache bag and doesn't scream "steal me I'm full of expensive Swedish camera gear". Though having my Bogen sticks strapped across my back sort of defeated the subterfuge. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/whistle.gif

Here are a few shots from my Hasselblad. Sharp eyes might notice the Hasselblad 'notches' on the two 'full frame' images.

12 stations processional walk in Cortona during a heavy rain/hail storm.

A canal on Lido (Venice) during early morning fog (about 5:30am early)

Reconstruction materials for earthquake repair in Assisi

 

[DrEntropy]

VERY nice, Shawn! I just KNOW the screen doesn't do 'em justice, either.

There's still a long way to go for digital imaging when compared to film. Even colour film. But Ilford HP4P is sweet... cream 'n sugar sweet.

I still have an 18% gray card in the bag, haven't completely given up yet. Darkroom was 'decommissioned' a few years ago, tho. I was being taught the craft as I grew up: Bride Chasing was with a 4x5 Speed Graphic and sheets... I was "free labor" as a 'bearer' and after a while: LabRat. I knew what sodium thiosulfate and acetic acid were, long ahead of Chem classes. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/jester.gif


Farmer's Reducer!
Marshall's oils!
Spot-Tone!
D-76, HC-110, KODALITH!!!

WOOHOO!!! ~some~ of the synapses I thought had been killed off long ago are still firin' apparently... /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif

 

[swift6]

The screen doesn't do them justice. They look very nice at 15"x15" with a simple white overmat and black frame. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif The Diana images hold up pretty well at that size as well in case you were interested. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'm a big fan of Ilford products. HP5P is extremely tractable and looks better than P3200 when pushed to 1600. P3200 doesn't llike to be pulled but pushes to 12,500 pretty well. HP4P is also very sweet like you said. In the slower speed films though I like Bergger the best. It has such a freaking high silver content its not funny. Very fine grained but so much silver its a 200 speed film. It can be spendy though and likes compensating developers like D-23 better than D-76. Then it produces a VERY wide tonal range.

I used to have mix stop by dilluting acetic acid to 28% pure. My ventilation fans were not getting the job done and the building maintenance guys said they were working at maximum suction. I made one of them stay in my chem room with me while I mixed. He immediately went topside to investigate. Turns out that the last bloke that changed the drive belt on the fans forgot to turn the power to the fan back on. So my little switch wasn't doing anything. I asked for my own key to the maintenance shed after that one.

I also bet my secretary once that I could take two room temperature liquids and combine them to near boiling with no outside heat source. Showed her what an exothermic reaction was. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

If were not careful were gonna turn this into a photography forum. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif