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Oxygenated fuel

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tahoe healey

tahoe healey

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This time of the year they only sell oxygenated fuel up here and all the posts about winter driving makes me want to take the old girl out for a spin (since its been dry for about 3 weeks). Our daily drivers run poorer with it. I need a fill up and was woundering what that stuff will do to my BJ8. Will the highest grade help any? I use the middle grade normally. Fuel questions have been knocked around on the forum many times before but I don't recall anything on oxygenation. Thanks.
 
glad you asked this questin been wondering the same thing myself. In spokane county WA this stuff is in the gas from about Nov thru Feb and in past years I have avoided it's use just because I was concerned about it. I have been filling up prior to Nov and that gives me plenty of fuel thru feb as I only drive the car once a month for abut 20 minutes. (been doing this for the past 20 years) However , this year I forgot about it and now have a full tank of oxygenated stuff. I did take it out last week for the monthly exercise period and it ran just fine. I have always used the highest grade possible in the car.
 
Hi Rich,
The topic of oxygenates is sometimes hotly debated. The compounds used are usually ethenol or MTBE. I think that MTBE is most common in your area. Ethanol is used in most other states. There is some question of the compounds' adversely affecting the older rubber type seals & gaskets. Most of these "problems" have not been verified under laboratory conditions & are likely subjective conclusions or rumor. They doe have a bit less heat content, (BTU's per gallon) so gas mileage may be a little less.

I doubt if fuel grade will make much difference in MTBE content. At your altitude lower octane should work well. Maybe a problem when you go down to the "city". Fuel formulated for a warmer climate will likely have less oxygenates. Get your gas in L.A.?

I think that a short winter diet of oxygenated fuel will NOT hurt your car. Given the choice of using the "bad fuel" or not driving, I personally would opt for using the bad fuel. However, if you have "any" fuel system problems in the future, you can always blame them on the MTBE, as many folks do. The parts most likely to be affected would be the carb float bowl to body seals, the fuel pump diaphram, & any short rubber connecting hoses. SU's don't have many "rubber" parts to start with.The biggest complaint about MTBE is related to possible ground water contamination & is hotly debated in your state.
D
It appears from John T's post that CA switched from MTBE to ethanol for 2004.
 
TH, I have been running the stuff for years both MTBE and Alky the latter being all that is available here in the southern part of the state no problems at all.However, if you are worried about the valves put a little CD-2 in the tank.-FWIW---Keoke
 
CD-2 has not been effective for me. I used it pretty religously for 15plus years and now I have a burned valve. Or is 15 years all that can be expected?
 
If you're getting your fuel in California, they quit putting in MTBE as of the first of 2004. Now it will have ethanol.

I understand some of the "old" fuel lines would break down with MTBE, but by now a 40-yr old +/- Healey should have had all those pieces replaced with new.
 
HH;
If CD 2 was the culprit I would think you would have had more than a single valve fail.-FWIW---Keoke
 
Yes, we have no MTBE no more! Out town had 37 well before the MTBE now we are down to 17. All the gas stations had to remove their tanks at major $$$$ and replace with double walled tanks. Many just closed (Shell pulled out 3 locations) and paid fines. But what ever it is has less power in our two Toyota 4-Runners (at a time we need it most, plowing through the one to two feet of snow we get in an average storm).
Is CD 2 the old Alomite gas additive from the 50's and 60's? I haven't heard of that in years. Will that work in the fuel injected Toyotas safely?
 
TH, CD2 is redily available at most discount auto supply stores. I do not know what the Rice burners need probably nothing but a good tuneup.---Keoke----PS Try Union 76 fuel if it is available up there.
 
[ QUOTE ]
But what ever it is has less power in our two Toyota 4-Runners (at a time we need it most, plowing through the one to two feet of snow we get in an average storm).

[/ QUOTE ]
TH,
I believe that CA is limited to about 10% or less, by volume, of ethanol in the gasoline. This in lieu of the formerly used MTBE. Since ethanol has about 33% less heat content than gasoline, the engine would either run 67% of 10% = about 7% lean or use about 7% more fuel. It depends on how the engine management system is set up on your Toyota. The Healey would just run 7% leaner.

To confound the issue:
If you are at 7,000 ft elevation, air density will decrease about 21% from it's density at sea level, which would make the engine run 21% rich if nothing were compensated. Of course it will also reduce power due to the 21% lesser air available. To confound the issue a bit more, for an intake air temperature drop from 80 degrees F. to 40 degrees F., air density increases about 8% which would make an engine run leaner. The net result for the Healey would be 13% richer mixture for your location in the winter due to combined temperature drop & high elevation. 21% richer in the summer without the temperature drop.

Your other cars should be computer compensated for these changes & show little change except for the 21% loss of power due to high elevation. Their temperature controlled air intake should eliminate the 8% air density change due to temperature change also, as it is likely set to maintain the air temp at about 100 degrees or higher.

With everything factored in, & the fact that the gasoline blend changes with the seasons, I doubt if it is possible to attribute poor engine performance completely to the fuel being used.
D
 
OK ignorant Limey question having never heard of fuel oxygenation in the winter months - why do they alter the composition ? I know that here diesel is doped with an addative to lower the freezing point so it doesn't wax up, but I've never come across petrol being doped in the winter.
 
Steady on Andrew, your not the only one, it seems to me that we are either living in ignorant bliss or, thank goodness, we do not have to worry about such things on this side of the pond. It all sound far to complicated for my feable mind to take in.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif Bob
 
Andrew & Bob,
Oxygenated fuels are what I believe to be misguided attempts to lower air pollution from American vehicles. The whole subject is immensely complicated & likely not very effective. It was mostly dreamed up by misguided politicians & academics who had to have a cause to fight for or "something to do". Supposedly, oxygenate fuel additives reduce air pollution but arguably substitute one form of pollution for another. California politicians have been at the forefront of this activity.

Supposedly oxygenates cause a hotter combustion flame & reduce CO2 byproducts. The down side is that nitrogen oxides are increased, fuel mileage is decreased, & the oxygenate producers are reaping huge profits at tax payer & consumer expense.

MTBE was one of the first popular fuel oxygenate additives but was long ago known to be a very obnoxious material which caused irreversable ground water pollution if spilled. Selling MTBE was popular with oil refineries because otherwise it was a waste byproduct of the refining process. Even though this fact was know for years, only in the past year has it's use in gasoline been substituted with ethyl alcohol in California. A few other states are pursuing the same course. California politicians have long been the leading advocates of some of these questionable schemes. Since the California refinery resources are largely isolated from the rest of the USA refinerys, the politicians were free to pursue some rather odd motor fuel mixtures & inflict there questionable ideas on their own citizens without affecting the more geographically isolated states.

To make matters worse, there are huge USA government subsidies for ethyl alcohol producers who cause air pollution themselves by burning fossil fuel to produce the alcohol. If all farms in the USA were converted to growing plant material to produce ethyl alcohol, only a fraction of the nations fuel needs would be met. It is estimated that for every dollars worth of alcohol produced, about 30 dollars of direct & indirect government costs are involved. One or two large companies are reaping the benefits of this scam.

These statements are my own evaluation of the situation & some of the more "green" oriented folks may take exception.

You can read more on the subject here: https://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels.htm
D
 
Thanks Dave, I have carried out some research on the web since this morning and have come up with 'Comparison of Transport Fuels-Part2 details of fuels-petrohol' amongs a host of others. I have not examined it closely yet, but it seems to bolster the use of additives. I guess there are politicians influences at work here.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gifBob
 
It appears to have cleared the air over cities like Los Angeles where the sky was BROWN. However the air is no more breathable health wise.
Besides, you guys in the UK just let it all blow over to France. No problem.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It appears to have cleared the air over cities like Los Angeles where the sky was BROWN. However the air is no more breathable health wise.
Besides, you guys in the UK just let it all blow over to France. No problem.

[/ QUOTE ]


...mmm... now lets see - France is largely South of the UK and the prevailing winds are from the South West - no sorry it's a nice thought but not true !!!

Our beloved Government control it by charging a 'carbon tax' on users of fuel and in their befuddled thinking think that we use fuel as a luxury and can easily reduce the amount. It's so darn expensive we are motivated to use as little as possible anyway!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/england.gif
 
Bob& Andrew can you still obtain 5 Star petro in your neck of the woods??---Keoke
 
[ QUOTE ]
Bob& Andrew can you still obtain 5 Star petro in your neck of the woods??---Keoke

[/ QUOTE ]

Not where I am sadly
 
[ QUOTE ]
...and the prevailing winds are from the South West -

[/ QUOTE ]

Oi! That's Sweden up there to the right!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Besides, you guys in the UK just let it all blow over to France.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a wonderful response to that statement, but, sadly, it would have never have gotten past Basil.
Jeff
 
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