Spitfire My eBay Spitfire - the sage continues.. advice pls

[Scott_Hower]

So if you are following along, back in early January, I bought a Spit on eBay.

The car checked out clean (thanks tdskip!) so I send the cash and made arrangements to ship it from San Diego to Philadelphia. Not exactly cheap. But rustfree Spits here... well, they aren't here. Satellite tracking for DAS says it's currently in Chicago and should be here on Monday.

I asked the seller to Fedex me the title and that's where things started to go south. First, he claimed that he was the owner and couldn't find the title. Next, he claimed he in fact wasn't the owner, but the owner did have the title and would sign it over to him and him to me. Red flags.

Yesterday I got a signed (but not notarized) CA DMV 227 form in the mail from what appears to be the legal owner to transfer ownership within CA. The form clearly indicates it needs to be notarized in CA. I have an appt with a PA notary today, but I am nearly certain this form is useless to me in PA as an instrument of ownership.

I send a mildly threatening email stating that I would use eBay's fraud group to help him to product a title and he got all snippy with me. The auction clearly states CLEAN title and he's obligated to produce it.

Can anyone is CA tell me what needs to be done to either aquire a MISSING title or transfer a PAPERLESS title to a new out of state owner? I have a CA DMV form 227 with sections 1-5 completed and signed, but not notarized. I seem to have to hold this guys hand for some reason.

What a mess...

 

[tdskip]

Oh no. What a pain.

I think a CA DMV 227 has to be notarized for CA DMV to consider it valid. So while having it signed shows intent by the seller, which helps if things get really sticky, it needs to be taken care of.

How about if we set up a meeting with the seller so I can run back down to San Diego to get this properly notarized?

I can run it over to DMV if you want so the seller is completely out of it at that point.

 

[Scott_Hower]

Tom,

I hate to drag you back into this; you have already gone over the top by looking over the car for me.

I just spoke with a competent PA notary. The CA DMV form he sent can be used to transfer ownership among CA residents (although it must be notarized). PA will not accept this. The only instrument that can be used to transfer vehicle ownership from CA to PA is a title. Nothing else is valid in PA.

So I need the owner to apply for and receive a replacement CA title. Which he then needs to sign on the back (notary not required near as I can tell, but recommended by PA notary). I also need a signed Bill of Sale (no probs there, it's just a receipt) to document the sale.

I am going to contact the owner and explain the whole process. Anyone know what CA DMV form is used to issue a replacement title?

I just can't believe someone in CA would drive a vehicle without having a valid title.

Thanks for the offer, I'll PM you if I need a hand.

 

[mrv8q]

DMV Reg 227 is an application form for: Duplicate title, or Paperless Title Certification, or Transfer of title with Duplicate title, or Transfer of title with Paperless Title. Section 3 of the form is the missing title statement; lost, stolen, not received, etc. Section 5 is the legal owner of record release of ownership; that's where it needs to be notarized. That's what the old owner needs to fill out.

I believe he should also send you DMV Reg 262. This is the Vehicle Transfer and Reassignment form. It states: This must accompany the titling document or application for a duplicate title.

I think these are downloadable in PDF form from ca.dmv.gov, (or whatever it is), so that you can see what they look like. Hope that helps!

 

[Scott_Hower]

DMV Reg 227 is an application form for: Duplicate title, or Paperless Title Certification, or Transfer of title with Duplicate title, or Transfer of title with Paperless Title. Section 3 of the form is the missing title statement; lost, stolen, not received, etc. Section 5 is the legal owner of record release of ownership; that's where it needs to be notarized. That's what the old owner needs to fill out.

I believe he should also send you DMV Reg 262. This is the Vehicle Transfer and Reassignment form. It states: This must accompany the titling document or application for a duplicate title.

I think these are downloadable in PDF form from ca.dmv.gov, (or whatever it is), so that you can see what they look like. Hope that helps!

Thanks; but this can't be used outside of CA. PA wont recognize anything but a CA title.

Can the seller use this form to apply for a replacement title (is that the same as a duplicate title?)

 

[mrv8q]

Can the seller use this form to apply for a replacement title (is that the same as a duplicate title?)

The original CA owner, whoever it is at this point, would need to fill out that 227 form, and wait the 4-6 weeks for CA DMV to do its thing, then send that on to you..... not a good thing for an eBay seller to do!

 

[Scott_Hower]

Can the seller use this form to apply for a replacement title (is that the same as a duplicate title?)

The original CA owner, whoever it is at this point, would need to fill out that 227 form, and wait the 4-6 weeks for CA DMV to do its thing, then send that on to you..... not a good thing for an eBay seller to do!

Tell me about it. The guy seems to think that so long as the car is on the truck, he's of the hook. I don't think so.

Any idea what this costs and which section of the 227 is relevant (it can be used for 4 things)?

 

[Scott_Hower]

On a positive note and despite the title mayhem, I have a complete (and I mean *complete*, from the day it left the showroom) service history. Probably 100 pages of receipts including the original Passport to Service, with every single stamp up to 45k miles (it has 52K on it), the OEM Owners and Maintenance manuals, warranty card and info, sales receipt - you name it. It was like opening a time capsule.

Lessee... 3 clutch masters and two slaves in 10 years!? Looks like the diff was rebuilt 10 years ago. Replacement GoldSeal engine...?! Brakes, batteries, wheel bearings, shocks...

If anyone wants to watch it go across country, type in the following:

1. https://www.dasautoshippers.com
2. Tracking #: 3275963
3. Last 4 digits of name: HOWE

Photos as soon as it arrives...

 

[Geo Hahn]

Not of any use to you Scott... but others: When I bought a TR on eBay I had the seller fax me a copy of the title before money changed hands.

Indeed, on mine there was a problem -- it had been titled for 40 years with the wrong VIN... it ended in a "1" when it should have been an "L". You has to look close as lower case l and a 1 look very similar but I had the seller sort it out with his DMV -- much easier to do on his end & before the $$$ were sent.

 

[Scott_Hower]

Good advice. To be honest, the eBay seller (the agent for the owner) seems like a really nice guy; I think he was lead to believe the title was fine. He seems as frustrated as I do.

One way or another, the paperwork will sort itself out, eBay guarantees the deal. These cars just cannot be found on the East coast in this kind of condition, so it is well worth it.

 

[ALLAN]

Im not sure if you got your answer but I can tell you that the title doesnt need to be notarized in Calif. The title in California (pink slip) has to be signed and dated by the owner on the front of the the pink slip where it is marked "release interest in vehicle". All that had to be done is have the owner sign the pink slip and mail it to you. now it is more complicated and the guy you have been dealing with will have to make it right. Im sure it will work out, the good thing is you will have the car. It takes Calif. approx. 3--6 weeks to get out a new pink slip, and then the guy you have been dealing with will have to sign it and mail it to you,he made it alot more complicated than it needed to be.

 

[Scott_Hower]

Allan - the problem is that there is no title (aka pink slip). The owner apparently lost it and the guy selling it on eBay on his behalf didn't know. Who loses a title? Call me paranoid, but I keep all of mine in a safe deposit box at the bank, same as our wills.

Instead, the seller tried to use a CA form to apply for a duplicate and reassign it to a new owner, which PA will not accept (plus it wasn't notarized). If this deal were transpiring between two Cali residents, the only problem would be the lack of a notary stamp.

Does anyone have a photo of a California title (you can black out the details) so I know what to expect when it arrives?

 

[TheAssociate]

Wow. Sounds like a lot of trouble. In B.C. if you have a unique vehicle such as these cars, or a motocycle etc. you can go to ICBC(insurance corp. of British Columbia)and ask them about registering a vehicle with no papers.

Last time I thought about doing this(for a motorcycle with no papers) they told me that all I needed to do is gather as much information about the vehicle as I could including letters from as many previous owners as possible, serial number search etc. and give it to them to prove it was not stolen.

When they evaluate the situation, they will simply issue you new ownership papers, then you can get insurance.

In the states I guess it's called the DMV. I would ask them in your state exactly what to do first. It might work out.

Adam H.
___________________________________________________________
1973 Triumph Spitfire

 

[Joe_Pinehill]

I bought a car long distance, and luckily it all worked out.

I sent a check, and the seller sent me the title and I retitled the car before he put it on the transporter, In hindsight, I wish I had thought to have him send a copy of the title along with a digital pic of the VIN Plate.

There are escrow companies that do car sales also, to ensure you have clear title.

 

[Joe_Pinehill]

Re: My eBay Spitfire - the sage continues.. advice

Wow. Sounds like a lot of trouble. In B.C. if you have a unique vehicle such as these cars, or a motocycle etc. you can go to ICBC(insurance corp. of British Columbia)and ask them about registering a vehicle with no papers.

Last time I thought about doing this(for a motorcycle with no papers) they told me that all I needed to do is gather as much information about the vehicle as I could including letters from as many previous owners as possible, serial number search etc. and give it to them to prove it was not stolen.

When they evaluate the situation, they will simply issue you new ownership papers, then you can get insurance.

In the states I guess it's called the DMV. I would ask them in your state exactly what to do first. It might work out.

Adam H.
___________________________________________________________
1973 Triumph Spitfire

Adam this is the land of lawyers, if only it were that easy. From State to State the laws are completely different. Each state having their own DMV and titleing laws. Reclaiming title is legal specialty

 

[ALLAN]

All the owner had to do was apply for a duplicate in his name and when he gets it---sign and send to you. It did not have to be put in the sellers name unless he did have an interest in the car. Maybe he is not telling you the truth but I still think it will work out.

 

[Scott_Hower]

All the owner had to do was apply for a duplicate in his name and when he gets it---sign and send to you. It did not have to be put in the sellers name unless he did have an interest in the car. Maybe he is not telling you the truth but I still think it will work out.

Thats exactly what I'm telling him to do. Get the owner to have a dup title issued (form 227, section 1-3). Any idea how much this costs? He also sent me some kind of DMV registration; looks like he had to pay about $550 in fees, as this was not registered since 2002. Whats up with that? And does this have any bearing on the dup title issuance? Must I send this document back to him? The reg says something about SMOG certification.

Once the dup title gets issued, I'm going to have him (the owner) sign it (notarized for good measure) and send it.
PA notary suggested I also have a signed bill of sale, but it is not strictly required.

The seller is just the conduit at this point.

 

[mrv8q]

As best I know, it'll cost him $15 dollars to have a duplicate title done. IMHO, his spending $550 on registration sounds like he bought a car, paid sales tax on it, and paid for the last 3 years of what the registation would have been, if the car didn't have a PNO, or permit for non-operation, (or something like that). It's a good thing he has that paperwork, it'll go through easier through DMV. What's strange is that he doesn't thave the title; paying that much money to DMV makes for an expensive pink slip! I think I'd want to keep it!

BTW, pink slip is an obsolete term. New registations in CA now look like birth certificates; ie, large; old pinks and registration were relatively small forms.

He won't need to notarize the title to send it to you; you might need to find out if PA requires this.

One more thing... in CA, if a car is 1976 and newer, it needs to pass an emissions test. This can be a pretty stringent thing; unmodified, completely original smog equipment intact, etc. The seller is responsible for this, and it's required if the car stays in CA. I have no idea what needs to be done if the car is sold to an out-of-state buyer. You might poke around on the CA DMV site for more info. By the time this is all done, you'll be an expert! At least, you got a nice CA car out of it!

 

[mrv8q]

As best I know, it'll cost him $15 dollars to have a duplicate title done. IMHO, his spending $550 on registration sounds like he bought a car, paid sales tax on it, and paid for the last 3 years of what the registation would have been, if the car didn't have a PNO, or permit for non-operation, (or something like that). It's a good thing he has that paperwork, it'll go through easier through DMV. What's strange is that he doesn't thave the title; paying that much money to DMV makes for an expensive pink slip! I think I'd want to keep it!

BTW, pink slip is an obsolete term. New registations in CA now look like birth certificates; ie, large; old pinks and registration were relatively small forms.

He won't need to notarize the title to send it to you; you might need to find out if PA requires this.

One more thing... in CA, if a car is 1976 and newer, it needs to pass an emissions test. This can be a pretty stringent thing; unmodified, completely original smog equipment intact, etc. The seller is responsible for this, and it's required if the car stays in CA. I have no idea what needs to be done if the car is sold to an out-of-state buyer. You might poke around on the CA DMV site for more info. By the time this is all done, you'll be an expert! At least, you got a nice CA car out of it!

 

[AngliaGT]

Here in CA,you always want to check to
make sure that there's a current title,or
a non-op certificate.
After I got the Datsun B210,I found out
that there were $325 of back fees on it.
I got it for nothing,so I went through with
it.They can nail you for the current registation
fees,+ 2years of back fees.
Another problem here is making sure a car will
pass the smog check (if you're registering it in CA).
If you're selling it out of state,it doesen't matter.
1975 & earlier are exempt right now.
We also missplaced the title on my Son's Saturn,
& all we had to do was have my Son go to DMV & fill
out the paperwork to get a duplicate.
Scott,I'd have the legal owner do this.If he goes
into DMV,he'll have his ID to prove who he is,& they
cane look up the information on their computer.
That way,if there's a problem,he'll be right there to
correct it.

- Doug