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Modern Oils for Our Flat Tappet Engines

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twas_brillig

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[h=3][/h][h=3] For more detail and discussions, ensure that you read "Very interesting very long blog posting - racing oil and zinc" on this Forum.



And I don't want to steal anything from that thread, but figured adding the following both to the original thread plus starting a new one with a more easily referenced Title might be appropriate. Doug


***********************
I've written a couple of lubricant manufacturers regards their recommendations for 'our' engines (I identified 1959 to 1962 Sprites and a 3000). Here is a reply from Shell (I'd written Quaker State, owned by Shell), and from Castrol:



Castrol:
"Classic cars with flat tappet cam engines represent a special case in regards to engine oil lubrication. These engines have valve train configurations that require elevated levels of zddp (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) anti-wear for proper protection of the flat tappet camshaft and its lifters. Insufficient concentration of zddp will lead to premature wear and failure of the camshaft and lifters. Current GF-4 and GF-5 fuel economy grade engine oils are designed for extended life of the catalytic convertors in modern passenger cars and have industry mandated limitations on the amount of sulfur and phosphorus within the oil.

Castrol EDGE SAE 5W-50 has been recently reformulated to have a boosted level of ZDDP (1250 ppm) to help protect flat tappet cam engines in classic cars. This engine oil is a full synthetic, has excellent cold temperature properties, and has a high temperature viscosity (SAE 50) that is suitable for use in many classic car applications."


Quaker State/Shell:
"For your Austin-Healeys Model, it is recommended for those years model to consider an oil with API SF. In addition to that, your flat tappet engine required an oil with a reasonable amount of Zinc that will create the needed sacrificial layer for this area of your engine. My recommendation will be to consider using Shell Rotella T4 TP 15W-40 which contains in average 1200 ppm of zinc."

[/h]
 
Phoned Valvoline and Mobil/Exxon:

Mobil:
Use Mobil 1 15-50, which has 1300 ppm ZDDP. I asked for their recommendations regards oil changes and the chap advised that once a year or 16,000 km, and to change the oil in the fall.


Valvoline:
Their VR-1 Racing Oil has 1400 ppm zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorous. They recommend oil changes every 5000 km and to put fresh no-name/cheap oil in in the fall and change it out in the Spring.
 
Steve: yes. My apologies as I wasn't clear that my question was directed at us folks that have a summer driving season and a winter storage season. Both Valvoline and Mobil recommended putting fresh oil in the engine for the winter storage (I didn't ask the other companies), but Valvoline further recommended changing out the winter storage stuff when the summer driving season arrives as they were concerned with additive-deterioration/water build-up/I-don't-really-know over the winter period. Not much point in using the 'good' stuff if you won't be driving on it. Come spring, drive it home or around the block a few times to get it hot, and change it. And I've always been too cheap and lazy to actually follow that spring oil change advice. Doug
 
HI Doug,

Thanks for your post as, although I was reasonably comfortable using Mobile 1 15W-50m, I now have validation that it has sufficient ZDDP. Additionally, it is nice to know that other oils having the proper configuration are also available.

Good post,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
RAC68 said:
HI Doug,

Thanks for your post as, although I was reasonably comfortable using Mobile 1 15W-50m, I now have validation that it has sufficient ZDDP. Additionally, it is nice to know that other oils having the proper configuration are also available.

Good post,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
Click to expand...

It's good news that the oil companies have recognized the need for higher-zinc oil in our older engines and have created products accordingly.
 
OH Yeah!

That Valvoline VR1 is great stuff been usin it for ages.
 
Keoke said:
OH Yeah!

That Valvoline VR1 is great stuff been usin it for ages.
Click to expand...

I've got a bunch of the VR1 20W-50 I bought when we thought it might disappear here in California. The Castrol Edge 5W-50 looks like a better way to go because most wear occurs on startup and that's where the 5W part shines.
 
steveg said:
I've got a bunch of the VR1 20W-50 I bought when we thought it might disappear here in California. The Castrol Edge 5W-50 looks like a better way to go because most wear occurs on startup and that's where the 5W part shines.
Click to expand...

The argument against the 'wide spread' multi-viscosity oils is--at least, it used to be--that a lot of viscosity improvers (VIs) have to be added and they are some of the compounds that break down with heat and shear. So, your 5W-50 oil becomes, for instance, 3W-35 after a few thousand miles. Supposedly, 10W-40 was frowned upon by some car manufacturers for this reason. Maybe the synthetics do it better.
 
Bob_Spidell said:
The argument against the 'wide spread' multi-viscosity oils is--at least, it used to be--that a lot of viscosity improvers (VIs) have to be added and they are some of the compounds that break down with heat and shear. So, your 5W-50 oil becomes, for instance, 3W-35 after a few thousand miles. Supposedly, 10W-40 was frowned upon by some car manufacturers for this reason. Maybe the synthetics do it better.
Click to expand...

I wonder if this is a problem in our engines if we change the oil once a year. If it is a problem, maybe we gain more in reduced wear from the lower "W" number before the viscosity improver breaks down. If these are the oils the Bigs are making for our cars, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
 
This is the oil that I use on all my Vetteran cars on the Norton on the sail boat -for the last two years without problems-
https://goo.gl/photos/3q1W3mqfTok9XCAr5
my previous oil was Redline Synt 20 60 but the price was increased so much for my poket https://goo.gl/photos/dTaqrPJM6zA2HS9s9

https://goo.gl/photos/euLxjfhnp1FZPwWbA
https://goo.gl/photos/7D4JeNLUjYQLvDZr5
UNFORTUNATELY probably it is available only in Europe -I buy it online in Germany at good price
Full Synthetic -Gasoline or Diesel Engine-No Oxidation
I look around for know the ZDDP and result was 1250 due the fact that it is a Racing Oil not subject to Cathalitic problems
Road tested on a BMW for 400.000Km no wear come upon
 
DerekJ said:
The synthetics do 'do it better'. The chemistry of how the thinning works is completely different. They don't use viscosity improvers.
Click to expand...

Thought that might be the case; thanks for the confirmation.

Now, to hijack the thread slightly, I have a conundrum: I have Lucas 30W break-in oil in my BJ8 (Zn 3,000+ppm). My builder said to run it for 500 miles before switching to 'usual' oil (for me, that's VR1 20W-50). However, after the break-in, I'm heading off on a 4-5K mile road trip, and won't be able to change the oil (no way I'm letting some goof at a 'Quickie Change' touch my baby ;)). So, do I go ahead and use the VR1, assuming it'll hold up in (almost all) highway driving? Or, put a synthetic in there and risk not getting the break-in completely finished?
 
Bob, on a newly rebuilt engine you'd probably want a couple of oil changes on that trip. Why not map out where you will be and hook up with a few independent repair shops along the way--call them and tell them you'd like their help changing oil when you get in town and you will bring the materials.
 
...or check the A/H club rosters and see if you can get either a members place or local shop reference where you're going to be along the way.
 
CLEAH said:
Bob, on a newly rebuilt engine you'd probably want a couple of oil changes on that trip. Why not map out where you will be and hook up with a few independent repair shops along the way--call them and tell them you'd like their help changing oil when you get in town and you will bring the materials.
Click to expand...

Problem is, we don't really 'map out' these trips; just head in a general direction--since we start in California, that's generally between N and E/SE--and plot courses daily if not hourly. I suppose even your average grease monkey can remove a plug, drain the oil and swap a (spin-on) oil filter; I just worry about one over- or under-tightening either. I'd be comfortable with a single change at 1,000-1,500 miles or so. I'll be cutting the filter open at 500 miles, and if compression's good and the engine isn't making much metal I should be OK, no?
 
A couple of thoughts (from your typical non-expert): (1) I put a rare earth magnet on the drain plug and on the filter, hoping to capture any metallic bits (dunno if it makes a difference, but they're cheap and can't hurt); (2) take a spare filter and oil - there's probably a lot of independent shops that would be happy to join you in your oil change (at shop rates, of course); (3) worst case: swap out the oil filter only (with something underneath to catch the spills). My impression is that highway miles are a lot easier on engines and oils than normal intermittent stop/go commuting, and 4000 miles (for example) highway with maybe an additional filter change half way through the trip would be okay. But stopping for a shop-visit would be optimum. (I'm looking at a maybe 5000 mile motorcycle trip pretty soon, and figure I can do a side-of-the-road oil change, with the only limiting factor being disposing of the milk-jug full of oil in a responsible fashion.) Doug
 
twas_brillig said:
A couple of thoughts (from your typical non-expert): (1) I put a rare earth magnet on the drain plug and on the filter, hoping to capture any metallic bits (dunno if it makes a difference, but they're cheap and can't hurt); (2) take a spare filter and oil - there's probably a lot of independent shops that would be happy to join you in your oil change (at shop rates, of course); (3) worst case: swap out the oil filter only (with something underneath to catch the spills). My impression is that highway miles are a lot easier on engines and oils than normal intermittent stop/go commuting, and 4000 miles (for example) highway with maybe an additional filter change half way through the trip would be okay. But stopping for a shop-visit would be optimum. (I'm looking at a maybe 5000 mile motorcycle trip pretty soon, and figure I can do a side-of-the-road oil change, with the only limiting factor being disposing of the milk-jug full of oil in a responsible fashion.) Doug
Click to expand...

Thanks, Doug. We're planning on going to Canada, maybe we'll just stop by your place (although Calgary's kinda far out in the 'boonies') ;)
 
Keoke said:
OH Yeah!

That Valvoline VR1 is great stuff been usin it for ages.
Click to expand...

I was at my favorite local parts house today and noticed, as reported by others that VR1 is back on the shelf after mysteriously disappearing a year or so ago. Good deal, I think, then I noticed the label is slightly different than the stock I bought a year or so ago; in particular, 'HIGH ZINC' is shown prominently on the front label (my stash doesn't). Also, the 'new' stuff is rated SAE SJ only, whereas my bottles say 'EXCEEDS API SERVICE SGCD And All Pending API Gasoline Categories Exceeds API Services SN/SM/SL' The cam makers generally say that SN and SM are not suitable for flat tappet engines (not enough zinc and phosphorous). SN/SM--dunno about SL--are supposedly OK for engines with catalytic converters, which implies less zinc.

Anybody know for certain know what gives? My theories are:

1) Valvoline pulled their stock and simply relabeled their product SJ to make it clear it shouldn't be used in cars with cats

2) The old VR1 WAS acceptable for cars with cats, implying zinc content of no more than 800PPM or so, and they have reformulated the oil with more ZDDP, which required the relabeling. I hope this isn't the case, as I bought a boatload of it because it appeared to be an off-the-shelf oil with decent zinc and phosphorous content.

The plot thickens (it's now 20W-60).
 
The zinc limits don't apply to oils with viscosity greater than 50, because engines with catalytic converters don't use xxW-50 or xxW-60 oils. Thus, a SN/SM/SL oil can have high zinc of the viscosity is over 50.
 
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