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TR2/3/3A Lock Help...you out there JP?

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CJD

CJD

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So, I've moved across the dash to the ignition switch. And, it's impossible to work on that without resolving all the locks on the TR2. I have the complete locks from 2 cars, and no keys. Since the stainless face of all the lock cylinders are a bit dented and scratched, I decided to order a set of locks from Moss.

They showed up last week...

All three, including the ignition, glove box and boot, all had different keys. I expected that. What I did not expect is that the keys are not standard Triumph, but rather MG style cylinders. A minor setback. I studied the old locks, and after some careful tapping and polishing, I've got the original lock cylinders looking as good as new. I wanted all to know, first of all, that original style lock cylinders are no longer available from Moss.

I am now in the position of keying the old locks, since I have no keys. I bought the key FA blanks, so it's time for some tumbler work.

First question I have is for the old heads. That is, which key is supposed to work on which lock? IAW, is the ignition supposed to be on 1 key, and the boot and glove box together on another key? Or is there some other combination they used from the factory?

Now for JP's question, since he is our resident locksmith! I disassembled the tumblers and found a total of 3 different styles, with 5 tumblers per cylinder. I plan to make a random configuration of the 3 tumblers and cut the key blank to match. But, is there any combination of the 5 tumblers to avoid? I am not at all worried about theft...just so I don't end up with a combination that allows the key to fall out while driving...or worse, to snag so it's hard to remove it.

So, hope you're still tuned in JP!
 
Not sure what you mean by three different styles. I know that there are different depths that correspond to the cuts of the key, I thought all of the locks had flat wafers in them. I have never really researched the code series used for the TR locks.....But I can. It may be hard to swap them around and get an exact working key depending of the wear inside the cylinder and on the wafers. Pictures may help.

There is a MACS...which means maximum adjacent cut specification. It basically means not to put a very shallow cut right next to a deep cut because the code, when cut, may not leave a suitable surface on the key to operate.

You want to send me a package......I can cut the keys on a code machine and such.

Cheers
 
Wafers and depth...those are the terms I knew you'd have! Thanks for responding so fast, JP! They are, indeed like little brass wafers with slots in them. The top of the slots are identical, but the bottoms have 3 depths.

I think I can understand why it's best not to put a deep wafer next to a shallow...that would make the slope of the key cut so steep it would bind on the wafers as the key goes in or out? There were also twice as many middle depth wafers as shallow or deep. That would imply the factory put the mid depth in between the others to accomplish what you're saying. I was not sure what I was looking at when I removed the wafers, so I did not mark what the original codes were. I knew you'd be a big help!

I think I can figure out a configuration...with your advice, of course. But if I get in trouble I will take you up on your offer and mail the whole set your way. I'm away at work again, but can take pictures when I get back in a few days.

A thought I am toying with is to duplicate the key for the TR2 to match the TR3. I could even be cute, by making the ignition for one work the boot for the other, and vise versa. As I get older it gets harder to keep track of all the keys. I have a drawer of at least a hundred that I can't throw away for fear of needing them...but I have no idea what they went to.

Thanks again for the help...

PS...have you got a timeline for the new shop yet?
 
FWIW, one of my original locks seemed to have a maximum depth cut right next to a minimum. Never had any trouble with it hanging up.

Vague memory says that they actually changed the keying pattern at some point during production, but I don't recall the details offhand. My TR3A actually used a different blank for the ignition switch, but I think it wasn't the original switch/lock.
 
Basement is phase one and we are studded out....egress window in....ready for electric and plumbing. So maybe by end of summer for Phase two.....crossing fingers.

Fell free to send me a box....I can knock it right out if you want.....did you think about keying the locks the same as the TR3?? For simplicity

If not you could stamp them with a 2 or 3 numeric value to distinguish between them.
 
Great...hope the basement runs ahead of schedule. And thanks to both of you for the input...I'll update later to let you know how it goes.

So Randall, you think the original setup was a single key for everything?
 
CJD said:
So Randall, you think the original setup was a single key for everything?
Click to expand...
Ha, finally found it! The July 1961 issue of the TSOA newsletter mentions having the same key for the ignition, glove compartment and trunk. It doesn't specifically mention the door locks, but does talk about "only one key" and "a spare inside the license plate light". So yes, I think at least the later cars had only one key for the entire car.

And come to think of it, my second-previous TR3A did have the same key for the ignition and trunk. Don't recall if it fit the doors or not (who bothers locking those?). The current TR3 of course has no door locks at all.
 
Great info JP! That's what I was looking for. The TR2 has no door knobs, so one key for the rest really simplifies it. I remember you responding years ago when I was working on the TR3 locks. I was worried about not having the door locking pawls. They were missing. But, after a lot of consideration, we decided the door locks were pretty much a joke. It takes 2 seconds to reach inside the sidescreen and open the door from the inside. So I left the pawls out.

I didn't know you had another TR3. What's the story on that one?
 
I agree with Randall. By the time the 3A came along, some key changes were made; Most note ably the
ignition and trunk matched, and when door handle came along, they matched the glove box. I suppose the (designers) thinking was you can open the glove box while driving. They didn't take into account that 100% of TR owners put both keys on one key ring, almost like today. I can visualize Mama trying to wrest the glove box key off the ring while Pop is hollering to "What are you DOING??"
Regards key blanks, JP correct me if I"m wrong but I believe sidescreen TRs used FA blanks only on the early TR2s, then went to the FP series thru the 3A for all locks. I don't have enough information to comment on the 3Bs.
When I did my 3A many years ago, I (hand) cut the ignition key to match the FP number stamped on the ignition key barrel face.
I then removed all the other barrels, inserted my new ignition key, and GROUND the wafers down flush with the barrel. Crude but effective!
Frank
 
What you say follows with what I've found so far, Frank. I have a TR2 with the FA keys, and a TR3 and 3A that both have the FP keys.
 
CJD said:
I didn't know you had another TR3. What's the story on that one?
Click to expand...
Long time ago. It was also a 56, but with front drum brakes. A buddy spotted it sitting in a cornfield in Texas, and I bought it mostly to get the overdrive. The car wasn't in very good shape, it had been badly rusted and a body shop had just covered all the rust over with Bondo. Apparently the PO got in a dispute with the body shop and virtually all of the chrome trim mysteriously disappeared before they finally came to an agreement. Then he apparently couldn't believe how thick the Bondo was, so he took a screwdriver and chipped away the bondo at the base of the driver's side B post, revealing the lacework of remaining sheet metal (most of which tore away with the bondo) and leaving a gaping hole. He got disgusted and put it up for sale cheap.

My buddy did most of the legwork in dragging it back to his home in Spring and getting it running; then I flew down and spent a couple of weeks getting the brakes in shape and we caravaned back to CA. Never did replace the hinges and such, just tied rope through the hinge holes and used Bungee cords to hold the hood & trunk shut.

Had a lot of fun along the way back to CA. We hadn't even gotten out of his subdivision before the TR died and refused to start. But a quick roadside tech session showed that the point lead in the dizzy was bad, so we drove the couple of blocks back to his house (in his Pinto) and robbed a point lead from his MGA. Then it wanted to overheat in Houston traffic, but I figured out that the cobbled-together replacement for the thermostat housing (actually a water neck from some American V8, no thermostat at all) was letting the bypass line suck air. After tightening up the clamp, it quit blowing water out the overflow and we went on.

The only other major incident was actually his car! Somewhere in western Texas, we passed a sign on I-10 reading "Next services 104 miles". Just about 50 minutes later, his Pinto threw a front wheel bearing! We had a lively argument about whether to go on or go back ... I eventually won and we went back just about 55 miles to try and hunt Pinto parts. By dark we were back on the road, but not before I managed to accidentally kick a rattlesnake into the air! But that's another story.

I drove the TR3 a bit after that, but not a whole lot, and it spent several years sitting in the side yard under a tarp. I wound up robbing both the engine and OD and putting them in my 3A (as it's OD had quit and I didn't have money or time to rebuild it then). Then I put a non-OD gearbox and the clapped-out 3A engine back into the TR3 and sold it for over twice what I had paid for it. The buyer seemed awfully eager, considering the condition the car was in; I think he may have thought the door handles indicated the ultra-rare GT option. Personally, I just think it had the wrong doors on it, but ??? No idea what happened after that, I've never heard of it again.
 
My experience has been that the square shafts that come out of the trunk and door handles have the key code stamped on them and the glove box lock is marked also plus the ignition has the key code stamped right on the face. This is on a 58 and the one key fit everything. What about that guy who sold keys just with the code. I bought a key for a 61 with just he code and it worked fine. On this new project, I was going to try and fine him again. I cannot remember, but I thought he was connected with the TRF.
 
Great story, Randall. You are a brave man to travel that far in a clunker!

Thanks, SP. I like the idea of all the keys being the same. It just simplifies everything. I bet JP could cut keys off the codes for us if he finds the old code list.
 
I made it back. Yesterday I got the locks put back together and cut the keys to match. After thinking about it, I wound up just replacing the wafers in the original order. I got scared of trying to be cute about the keys and combinations.

JP, I see what you were talking about with the "wear" in the locks. The ignition lock was worn, so the key pattern was relatively "loose" to diffierences in the accuracy of the keys. I had to use the glove box lock to get a good pattern. It was worn less, so required closer tolerances.

Here are a few pics of the process I used. Would have been a lot easier with a key cutter. It still only took about 30 minutes to come up with the keys

This is the glove box cylinder taken apart. The wafers are crimped in. Tapping gently from below got them out easily, though. The little springs are really little.





And the new "JA" key blank from Moss



First, I put the key blank into the empty clyinder. I then used a scribe to mark the location where each wafer will contact the key. Just a little scratch for now.



Then, I re-installed the wafers one at a time. After installing the new wafer, I inserted the key and looked for how high the wafer stuck out of the cylinder.





I then used a dremel to cut into the key blank by the amount the wafer stuck out



I finally removed the wafers one more time to insert the tiny springs.



And staked them back



This picture is important. After I had the key cut, and it held the wafers perfectly flush, I inserted the cylinder into the ignition switch...and it got stuck! After a lot of swearing, I figured out that this nut sets the location of the cylinder in the switch assembly. What was happening is that the adjustment was allowing the first tumbler to "miss" the slot in the housing. As I tried to pull the key out, the key was trying to displace the first wafer...but it was not lined up with any slot. It was binding the key in the lock!



The solution was to use a big soldering iron to melt the blob of solder, and then tighten the nut to draw the lock cylinder farther into the housing...until the first wafer was lined up inside the slot. Whew! The blob of solder keeps the nut from falling off after many turns of the key, and it was put there by the factory.


And the finished ignition

 
As a follow-up, it did take some grinding to get good angles for the key ridges, and some smoothing with sand paper to get the key to work easily in the locks.

And a quick "before" pic



As another question for you JP...what do you like use to lubricate the assemblies?
 
Looks good, John.

First time around, I was scared to take the wafers out, so I just left them in place and carefully ground down each position on the key until the wafer came flush. I used a small cylindrical burr held with the axis at right angles to the key, so it cut a pretty good approximation to the ramp. But I still had to touch it up a bit with a fine file.

Somehow, I don't recall that nut on my ignition switch; probably just forgot about it.
 
I use Tri Flow.....or a teflon based spray lubricant. I am not a fan of graphite because there are so many different versions...and sometimes they can jam the inner workings if you get a course grind. I did find the code series so if you have blanks i can originate them just like factory keys.

:smile:
 
I know some of the switches did not have the nut on the back. Out of the 4 I have worked on, 3 did and 1 did not. I never thought it was critical...till this job!

Thanks, JP. I used to use graphite, but had some issues with it on other things not related to locks. I'm glad I asked! So far I have not found a down side to teflon on anything. I guess I posted the code for my TR2...so now anyone can cut the key and come take my car. PLEASE..come and take it!!!
 
Hi John,Very nice info on rekeying your TR locks - but how do you get the lock cylinder out of the ignition switch without a key. I tried to get the lock cylinder out of the igninition swith but all I could do was destroy the cylinder without the use a key? I have a 1957 TR3 I am restoring.Chuck
 
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