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brokenmoped

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Hi Everyone,

My name is Corey and I've been "lurking" around these forums for awhile now and have learned quite a bit about Triumphs and TR6s in particular. I am very interested (more like obsessed) with these little cars and was planning on buying one in the near future. I want a good, reliable, daily driver that I could take to the track on weekends and give those ricers a run for their money and would like some advice on how to build this type of TR6.

I really don't know too much about cars besides the basics, but still remain a big car fan and enjoy talking about them and racing them. Basically, I want a 160-175hp TR6 with great handling and reliability (don't we all), but don't really know where to start. Increase Comp Ratio or Supercharger, triple ZS or dual Webers, Monza, Ansa, or Falcon? You get the point. Any advice and/or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Corey
 
Corey,
Welcome to the Forum. Great to have you here.

I hate to say it (and say anything at all discouraging,) but to make a fast and great handling TR6 capable of beating modern imports, while possible, certainly is not going to be cheap or very great for daily driving.

I'll give my typical Triumph spiel, and if you've heard it before, I apologize -- but TRs are not good handling cars out of the box by modern standards. Even by contemporary standards, the TR6 was a dreadful handling car. Compared to the unibody MGB, the TR6 was so antiquated that the chassis would flex and twist. To give you an idea, my TR-250 (similar in most respects to a TR6, except for body panels,) would lift its rear wheel in really hard cornering. Now that's fine for a Lotus Cortina or VW GTi, but those are front wheel drive.

Basic handling principles say that to get good handling with a loose chassis, you need monsterous spring rates. That equates to loose fillings in the driver's teeth. Just ask anyone who ordered the Z51 performance suspension option on 1984 Corvettes (the best handling car of '84) how comfortable the ride was!

In terms of acceleration, again, you're starting with a disadvantage. THe TR6 was about 104hp (gross hp, not net.) It was capable of 0-60 in roughly 11 seconds.

Now, to dust off modern imports, you'll need to shave at least 3 seconds off that time. This means cam, higher compression ratio, and more fuel. You can go to triple SUs or Webers, but there are issues: 1) this is more complex to keep in tune. 2)You likely will foul plugs when stuck in traffic. 3)TR engines ain't the smoothest at idle when stock -- hopped-up, they can be downright brutal.

Again, it is possible to accomplish, but you're better off driving a TR6 for its style, seat-of-the-pants fun and overall cool factor. If you want to race against modern cars, it's better done in a more modern car, unless you buy a purpose-built racer. (Like maybe a bug-eye Sprite with a rotary engine!)

Just opinion, so take it for what it's worth. Other guys have made scary-fast TRs. As they say, "all it takes is money and time."
 
An '84 Corvette was incapable of going fast enough to rattle anyone's fillings out. =)
 
Hi Corey,

And welcome!

Well, I'd have to ask a question or two, before giving any suggestions.

First, what type of track are you going to be racing on?

If we are talking about autocross and fairly unmodified cars, that's one thing. If you want to go road racing, that's another. Drag racing is yet another.

My TR4 used to compete in the same class as Corvettes, in autocross. Obviously the big, V8s would blow my doors off on a road race track.

For a simple autocross setup, I'd suggest an older car, like the TR4, with it's ladder chassis and live or solid rear axle. Much easier to set up, although the ride won't be as nice and cushy on your daily commute. The engine can be tuned for autocross with original SU carbs, quite satisfactorily. Webers and such don't give much advantage in this type racing.

On a road course, the Webers can really do their thing and give an extra 5 or 10% at the top of the rpm range. But, figure on swapping in a hotter cam, doing porting, increasing valve size, installing a header, maybe changing to an electronic multi-spark ignition, etc., etc. to get the carbs to work at the top of their capabilities. It's really a system to get the motor to breathe as best possible at higher rpms, and the more it's improved at that end the less enjoyable it will be as a daily driver.

When it comes to exhaust, you are faced with similar questions. For road race, a large, 2-1/2" exhaust system with minimal muffler and restriction will allow the maximum top end power. But, for autocross a 2" might be a better choice, to retain off-the-line acceleration and good torque at in a lower rpm range.

Tuning and tweaking can be done a little at a time.

As already noted, TR6 are harder to set up in terms of handling, due to the more complex independent rear suspension. But it's possible to improve them a lot, if you have the time and the money!

I'd suggest you try to get a copy of Roger William's book, "Improving TR5, 250 and 6". There are tons of ideas on setting these cars up and the information is really current. He's also written companion books about restoring TR6 and several pertaining to both restoration and improvement of later and earlier models.

Perhaps the easiest way to boost horsepower in a TR6, to the levels you want, would be to install fuel injection. The British models of these cars with PI (petrol injection) were around 150 HP right from the factory. Williams talks about various options to make the conversion in his "Improving" books.

The "over the top" way to make big horsepower in these little old cars is to drop in a V8. Again, Williams shows a couple examples and might give you some ideas.

I'm starting to sound like an ad for Roger's books, but I really have no connection!

You might also want to be a little selective about the age of car you choose. I see you are in California like me and if you want to drive the car on the street, there are more limitations here than anywhere else. My car is a 1962, pre-pollution control, so I don't know much about this. I suggest you do a little research in that respect, too.

You might also want to see if there is a Triumph club in your area, and go as a guest or join, to see what folks have done with their cars, maybe get some up close and personal advice and inspiration.

In terms of racing, the first thing to do is pickup a rule book for the type of racing you want to do, to get guidelines of what modifications are allowed in various classes and what safety equipment is required. SCCA has a website with rule books for their various forms of racing, which probably act as a guide for many racing bodies in the U.S. They call autocross "Solo" and have it set up at several levels of preparation, to allow street cars to compete in one, while more modified cars go head to head in another.

Hope this helps!

Alan
 
Welcome to the forum! With that said, here's another thought for you.

My first LBC was a Spitfire that I had when I was a kid, many moons ago. I always wanted a TR6, though, as my buddy had one and smoked my Spit. However, if good handling and "high performance" is what you're looking for, you should consider a TR8 or TR7 V8 conversion. The "wedge" was noted as being the best handling Triumphs. The Rover V8 in the TR8 is a really good motor, and although the stock carbs are a little anemic, that's easily fixed. For the price of a "decent" stock TR6, which needs lots of things done to perk up the performance to what you want, you could have the hp and torque of a V8 under the bonnet.
 
I agree with ObiRich...having owned two TR3s, a TR-250 and a TR7, as well as having considerable wheel time on TR-6s, I can say with 100 percent certainty that the TR7 is light years ahead of the other TRs in terms of handling, and as a basis for going stupidly fast.

While the standard TR8 was no means a barn burner (0-60 in high 8 second range, which is no slouch in the 80s, by the way,) the Buick/Rover V8 has plenty of go-fast parts and considerable upside. With headers, exhaust and a good Holley carb, you can really increase the beast inside.

Now, maybe the most important thing: TR7s are ULTIMATE sleepers. People either don't know what they are, or absolutely laugh at them. ("TR7s were pieces of junk" is the standard line I hear.) They are deemed underpowered, and almost nobody has ever driven one. Therefore, few know that with proper tuning on a V8 swap, these things can make great racers.

They also make good daily drivers, because they are far and away the most comfortable. Tons of leg and head room. Fantastic seats. You can even get one with A/C.

And the final plus: they are the cheapest. I bought my running, rust-free TR-7 roadster for under $2000. A sub-$2000 TR6 will have rust holes the size of Kirstie Alley's tushy. TR7 Spiders (fuel injected) are a little more, but they are definitely cooler if you're staying stock -- and I'm not just saying that to brown-nose ObiRich /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Oh, and the comment about the '84 Corvette not going fast -- it was one of the two or three fastest production cars in 1984. Of course, that's not saying much -- it had just 205hp. But it was capable of nearly 1g on the skidpad. Tragically, the 1g figure couldn't translate to the slalom, because the springs were too stiff, causing the car to slide under quick transitions.

Oh, and one last thing: keep in mind that in racing, the car only gets you so far. I raced for a season and change in Houston's SCCA Solo2. Although I won the season trophy for my class, the class winner for a significantly slower class was almost always just behind my times. I was racing a 350hp '99 Corvette, and he raced a Civic Si. He was a HECK of a driver.

All the performance in the world means nothing without the training and practice to make good (and safe) use of it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
and as a basis for going stupidly fast.


[/ QUOTE ]

I love it when people say that, I guess I've been acting stupid most of my life! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Welcome to the board Corey. I'd agree with what Rich and Sammy have said about the TR7/TR8 vs TR6 even though I have never driven a TR8 or TR7 V8 conversion myself. A friend of mine back in school had a nice white TR7 coupe and it was a really comfortable, well handling car compared to my TR6, even bone stock. I've talked to people who've owned and raced TR8's and TR7 V8's and they can really be giant killers if set up correctly. And the best part is, as Sammy said, good clean base TR7's can be had dirt cheap. I've seen cars that looked still new on Ebay the last few months going for somewhere around $3-4K. Getting the parts and info for doing the swap to the Rover V8 is pretty straight forward, lots of experience around this board and on the web in general.

[ QUOTE ]
All the performance in the world means nothing without the training and practice to make good (and safe) use of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the most important thing you will read in this entire thread. I've often thought that Sterling Moss in a Yugo vs me in a 911 GT3 = Sir Stirling doing the victory jig and me in the weeds with a really expensive pile of scrap metal /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cryin.gif. Even if I stayed out of the weeds he'd still smoke me.

Have fun on the board.
 
Thanks for getting back to me so fast and for the friendly welcome.

Regarding the whole "time and money" thing, I realize it will cost a LOT to make a 104hp car get up in the 170 range and take a lot of work, but I'm willing to spend the neccessary cash and put in those long hours in the garage to accomplish this. I've noticed some of the TR6s on this board are pretty darn fast (like trboost to name one) with just the stock motor. My goal with this car is do the same. I've had my share of V8s and even though they sure pack a punch, I'm getting bored with them. So can one of you give me a ballpark figure on different ways to achieve that. I tried it myself, but I think I am completely off.

And about you TR7/8 guys...sorry but I'm not really a fan of the wedge look. I guess I'm superficial. Besides, I already kind of have a wedge ('94 Camaro Z28) and want to change it up a bit. Thanks for the advice though.

I don't plan on racing competetively or anything. Just for fun at a local road race track. But of course I would like to win. I don't know, maybe I will get into the vintage racing scene someday.

As for the pollution concern, I believe it is anything before 1974 does not need to be smogged in California.

Once again, thanks for all the quick responses. Looks like everyone knows their Doo Doo on this forum.

Corey
 
Drop the LT1 into the TR6. Now buy lots of tires. And some brakes. Goooooood brakes.
 
Hey Corey,
As you have read there will be a ton of great advice from many like minded enthousiasts. If you make a plan with a goal for the car you want guided by the results gained by others on this forum you can definetly end up with exactly what you want.
There are all forms of power adders from naturally aspirated to forced induction, from a 125hp masaged motor to a very streetable 200hp engine & lots in between.
The belief that a lowered TR6 with uprated suspension is not suited for a daily driver, in my opinion is not accurate. To be honast I would have to say that a TR7 or any other convertable (not comparing coups) sports car set up in a similar fasion would yield similar road mannors. The TR7 does have a more modern platform & increased suspension travel but I don't think a similarly set up car will ride much differently.
Needless to say, the style of the car you want is a big factor. I happen to appreciate the wedge design but it's not a classic drop top British roadster look. I put it in the catogory of the Porshe 924 & Mazda RX series, certainly more modern.
So it all boils down to personal taste & what you want & can realisticly expect from your choice.
Good luck, I made my choice , now it's your turn /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Cory, welcome to the wellspring of LBC knowledge.170 hp is not a very lofty goal and should be very reachable if the funding is there!!A great street motor is basiclly a tamed down race motor. Start with a good crank , it must be lightened, nitrated, and balanced. Carrillo rods are necessary for higher rpm's. forged pistons can be custom ordered with a pop-up top for higher comp.For street use, dont go past a stage 3 cam. The real key to power is in the cylinder head, big valves and port work , it will cost to get this done right, but when it is right its worth it.
Good luck!!
MD(mad dog)
 
Thanks everyone for the great advice. I see that there are many different ways to squeeze power out of these little engines. Anyone ever try a BMW inline 6 engine swap? There's a few on ebay right now including tranny for relatively cheap. You could call it the TR6 M3...
 
I talked with my Dad about that. We were talking about a 535i motor. I think we ended up figuring out that it weighed more than a 302 V8.
 
Welcome to the board, Corey1
Lots of good advice in previous comments, I would just add that if you are planning to have fun at track days as opposed to racing competitively then suspension and tires are more important than horsepower, and either way, safety is top of the list.
Have fun!
Simon.
 
What Simon says ( no pun intended /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif) is so true. I have seen many an under powerd car crush competetors that would normally leave them in the dust on a long straight, only to even things out through the turns. It's all about balance & power. What fun is going fast if you can't turn the wheel !
 
Absolutely,
On the course used in Houston, the general feeling was that just using DOT legal race tires was good for an instant 3-4 seconds off your time. This was the downfall of my '99 Corvette running on stock Eagle run-flats (known as "run-craps" in the Corvette community.) Miatas would kill me in tight corners, even though my car was capable of putting-up better "as-new" skidpad numbers. Of course, I could obliterate them in the straights and high-speed back sweeper.

Then there were the Vipers, who could do most of the course in 1st gear!

Now specific to a TR6, there are things you can do, like a telescopic shock absorber conversion, but keep in mind that any changes you make can change your car's class. Sometimes, running within a stock production class provides the best advantage to old cars.
 
My buddy Joe's Viper got spanked by a guy in a GT6. The guy was an instructor and his car was modified and set up perfectly from what my friend could see. Still though, the horsepower difference was at least 2.5:1. Didn't help that my friend is a drag racer and doesn't know squat about road course racing. This was at Rockingham in NC I beleive. Joe said there were many high powered cars on the track that day and this little GT6 set the second best lap time of the whole day. Lots of guys with expensive toys and not alot of driving knowledge, but I guess you gotta start learning somewhere.
 
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