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Intake, Exhuast etc...

Colin_D

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I have a '69 TR6 and have a few questions.

1. Can I fit a dual header on my car if I change the whole system? I'm sure there's some reason it won't work but I need to ask.
2. Has anyone installed the Weber carb conversion? if so how do you like it??
3. Lastly what pressure do you have in your tires???

Cheers,

Colin
 
1. Yes

2. No

3. 28lbs in 205/70/15 Goodyear radials
 
I installed a ceramic coated 3-2-1 header, then split it into dual exhausts.
Rather than the weber conversion I'm planning on a triple carb, although at Triumphest there was a supercharged TR6, while a bit spendy it sure looked nice!
30 psi on the tires

Cheers,

Rob
 
Hi Colin

1. The split (6-3-2) stainless header is a good choice if you are planning on doing other things to your engine to increase performance. If all things are going to remain stock, you might be better off just remaining with a stock setup, perhaps upgrade to a stainless exhaust system and keep the stock cast iron exhaust manifold. There will be no appreciable increase of horsepower or performance with headers alone.
2. That said, are you talking about Weber DGV downdraught carbs (duals)? If so, don't waste your money. Just stick with your stock ZS carbs and get them rebuilt to concours standards and enjoy the ride. If you are talking about triple Weber carbs, you will have to have a Weber tuning expert on your payroll to tune them. They perform best at high rpms in a performance modified engine. I have seen trip Webers perform well on a TR6 but the engine was super high performance and the owner was an expert tuner.

3. Tires, whatever the manufacturer recommends.



Bill
 
Hi,

Mine's a TR4, but may shed a little light on what you are asking about:

1. Dual exhausts sound great, but a single, freer flowing oversize pipe has been dyno-tested and shown to give slightly better overall performance.

There are essentially two types of headers: long and short primary.

Long primary on TR6 most often are a 6-into-2-into-one design. These are generally tuned for high rpm work (road racing, 6000+ rpm).

Shorter primary on TR6 are more often 6-into-3-into-2, which can then either feed into dual exhaust or can be collected into a single exhaust. In general, this type is more flexible for street and highway driving, i.e. at more typical rpm range of a street car. This type header often is a "two-piece" design, with a separate collector (or two).

2. Yes, I've had dual Weber 40DCOE on my TR4 for over twenty years and I like them. (Note: with Weber sidedraft carbs, your car would need a triple setup.)

There are two primary types of Weber carb conversions for TR6 (plus a Webcon fuel injection conversion).

One conversion uses DGV (or similar) downdraft Webers. This is sort of an "economy" setup, designed less for performance and more for fuel economy. It is less expensive, too.

A sidedraft DCOE setup is more performance oreinted. Each carb has dual throats, so most installations see each cylinder fed by it's own throat. This allows for very specific tuning.

Nearly all sidedraft Weber setups need other engine mods to best take advantage of them (but the carbs *can* be tuned over a very wide variety of conditions). At a minimum, the engine needs to be in good condition with even compression across the cylinders and probably should have exhaust headers and a freer flowing exhaust system. A hotter cam is also preferred. All this might lead to the need to improve the cooling system, fuel delivery system, possibly more.

DCOE have different size venturi (aka "chokes") installed to tune for a particular engine. They also have a bunch of different jets metering fuel and air delivery under various engine conditions. Ideally, this should be set up initially and checked every so often on a dynamometer. In the end, that's a lot cheaper than trying to swap around parts in hopes of landing on the right combination. (With a 6 cylinder, there will be 6 of each jet and venturi, so multiply the cost of each item X6).

Another key thing with DCOE is that most installations require vacuum advance/retard at the distributor be disabled and closed off. The distributor then needs to be modified to provide a proper advance curve strictly through centrifugal force. This is because there are no vacuum pickups at the carbs or on the manifold, because that would upset the balance of the carbs. In part, vacuum advance/retard helps with fuel economy, so this is partially why DCOE have a reputation for not being very miserly with fuel.

An advantage DCOE enjoy over SU/ZS carbs is that the Webers have a true accelerator pump that injects fuel/air at wide open throttle. This improves acceleration, but also uses noticibly more fuel. SU/ZS do not have an accelerator pump, rely purely on engine vacuum to draw fuel and air into the cylinders.

Overall, factory testing that compared Weber DCOE with SU showed about 5-10% more horsepower possible.

Some folks are leary of installing DCOE on street cars. That's probably because most installations go for max HP at high rpms, and folks often skip the important dyno session to finalize the setup. DCOE are actually fairly easily tuned for more modest and reasonable performance on the street. My TR4 is fitted with 40DCOE (40mm throats) for just that reason. For racing, 45DCOE are the more common setup on TR2/3/4. Back in the 60s, 42DCOE were specified for TR2/3/4, but that size is no longer made and parts for them are now a lot harder to find. Smaller throat equals higher intake mixture gas speeds, which improves low-end and mid-range torque and is more favorable for general street use.

On your 6-cylinder, you'd also use 40DCOE. The primary venturi (chokes) will be smaller than I'm using since your car's volume-per-cylinder is a bit less (2500cc spread over 6-cyl., as compared to 2300cc in 4-cyl.). Most of the other DCOE jetting is organized around this basic starting point.

Once setup, DCOE are not prone to get out of adjustment. This is because there are very few moving parts in the carbs.

On the other hand, it also means that any particular setup is "ideal" for pretty specific ambient temp & humidity, altitude, etc., not to mention for the particular engine in its present state of tune. A car with DCOE will not be as flexible as it would be when fitted with SU or ZS carbs, which are somewhat "self-adjusting" for differing conditions (for example, driving up and down mountains).

3. Tire pressure is very specific to the car: it's weight, suspension setup, tire size & type, etc. 30 psi is a good starting point, but it will pay to experiement a little with your particular car.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
Hi Colin, You've had real good advice so far and I might either clarify or confuse.

1) If your referring to a stock dual downpipe manifold from '72 on, it will fit just fine. The exhaust ports did not change their spacing on the head, the intakes did though so the later (better) stock intake manifold won't fit up correctly. When changing the whole system out the intermediate support braces might be a little different but it won't be a big deal. Otherwise, it'll all fit right up.

2) Some people swear by the Weber DGV conversion. Personally, I agree with what Bill has said. Most people that swear by the DGV's have replaced really worn out ZS's and nearly anything can be an improvement over a completely worn carb no matter the manufacturer. It is important to COMPLETELY rebuild the ZS's though to get them back to where they should be. Like Bill said, concourse quality rebuild. Then you should be happy with them.

3) Tires pressures can bring a lot of different theories and opinions. The pressure listed on the side wall of the tire is what they manufacturers don't want you to exceed. (Which is why its called 'MAX PSI'). However newer tires greatly exceed the specs that the TR6 was designed for and the tire pressures can vary quite a bit depending upon what size tires you are currently using and what sort of driving you like doing. Like Paul, is run 28psi on my 195/65R15's. I find the stock pressure ratings of 20psi/front and 24psi/rear for US Spec cars a little too soft with current tire tech. But I also have a pretty modified car and have spent a lot of seat time getting to the 'sweet spot' for my set up. I can even tell when a tire(or a couple) are low before I am a block away from home. But that may just be me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Clear as Mud? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Good luck.

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Hi,

I can't add anything about the exhaust headers because I run the stock system on my TR250, and I'm very satisfied with my rebuilt ZS carbs. I wanted to reiterate what Shawn said about tire pressures regarding old specs vs. new: I used to "over-inflate" my Yokohamas to the tire mfg. spec of 32 PSI but was not happy with the ride and handling until I took it down to about 28 PSI, which is where I keep it now. That small difference in pressure makes a big difference in the stability and feel of the car, as well as how it "bites" into a turn. My shocks and springs are stock on the front with sway bar, and heavy-duty rebuilt levers and stock springs on the back.

Regards,
 
On the subject of tire pressure, remember that our cars for the most part are very light weight compared to most modern cars. Air pressure should be adjusted accordingly. One quick way to figure out a starting place is to look at the side of the tire, there are two numbers there one is max tire pressure, the other is max weight. Divide the max weight by the max tire pressure. Take the weight this tire will carry and divide it by the answer, remember adjust for the F/R weight bias. This will give you a number that will sound low especially if you have oversize tires, remember this is a starting place. Max tire pressure should not be uses unless you are carrying the max load or you are trying to set some fuel economy record. Tries are designed to run at an optimum contact patch size and sidewall stiffness, both are controlled by the air pressure. Tire shops always inflate to max because they don’t know what you will be carrying in the vehicle and the recent news about under inflated tires, as a result most cars ride rough and handle bad. While on this subject, tire size is also an issue. Resist the temptation to put the biggest tire that will fit in wheel well on your car. When you inflate the tire enough to get the sidewall flex right you may be reducing the contact patch so it is actually smaller than what you had with the narrower tires you replaced especially if you did not get wider wheels to go with your new tires.
 
On the DGVs, I had a set on my 70 and they were great! Dropped MPG from 27 down to 20 though. Sold them with the car. I bought a set at a swapmeet for my '74 but they have a problem I cannot figure out. When I hit the gas after deacceleration like into a corner the engine dies for a rev or two before taking off. In town it's no big deal but really bother some on the road. I went back to my ZSs and am over all just as happy with when I get 28mpg with them.
 
just to clarify what alan said about chocks, first the carb size (40,45,48) is not the choke size. inside the carb is a replacable "choke"/venturi of a smaller size in each "barrel". so a 40mm carb can have a 34,32,30,28, (smaller is better for lower rpm)etc size choke inside. a 40 is a good size for a street six. the triumph 2,3,4, engine sits right on the border of requirements for a 40 with 34mm chokes (or 32) or a 45 with 34mm chokes or 36 depending on state of tune. the "EXPERTS" say to use the 45. i ,like allan will use the 40 (cheaper and easier to find) because my car is primarily going to be a (fast-hopefully)street car on pump gas (94 R+M/2=98 RON -FOR YOU BRITISH TYPES)with a 6000 rpm max redline.One thing to note about webers is that the "NEW" webers from spain are not considered very good compared to the older ones. also dellorto's can be used in place of webers and according to david vizard, are better and more flexible (these are what i have).
have fun, talk to the experts (not just us)
rob
 
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