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Ignition System Manifesto

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steveg

steveg

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IMHO there's a larger lesson from BrandonBJ8’s breakdown as well as others: there is currently a general problem with replacement ignition system components: pertronix modules, points, condensers, coils, caps and some rotors.

When we go on the road we need to have known good backup components along. A spare pertronix isn’t going to cut it because the same condition that fried the original may likely fry the replacement. I’m using a pertronix but have a spare distributor setup with points ready to drop in. I’m using a Pertronix unballasted coil because my replacement Lucas sport coil performed erratically.

Spoke to Jeff Schlemmer of Advanced Distributors yesterday and he says:
1) he has good, tested condensers and good rotors and some good replacement caps.
2) Good points are currently not available - the Moss ones don’t align properly.
3) Lucas caps can be cleaned inside and out and are top quality.
4) he’s seeing newer pertronix modules fail in normal use – not just through ham-handed handling– says the newer ones, especially the ones that sense off the cam itself are to be avoided because they’re too fragile. Says use of copper wires will fry pertronix.
5) Original Lucas caps, rotors and condensers are to be treasured and can be overhauled like new.
6) Jeff says having more than one ground strap on the engine improves ignition component life and can actually prevent overheating of the coil.

Spoke to Moss QA guy and learned:
1) they are determined to solve these problems because especially the condenser and coil is a “single point of failure”.
2) they are negotiating with Lucas’ original manufacturer source in England among others to get good replacements.
 
Steve,

Great info. Please keep us posted on what you learn.

FWIW, I've run an (original) Pertronix with stranded copper secondary wires on my BJ8 for, well, forever. Don't recall exactly when I put it in, but it's probably been over 10years/50K miles. I do use resistor plug caps/terminals--I think they are 15K ohm--and Champion resistor plugs. Honestly, I can't think of any electronic reason why copper secondary wires would cause a problem--the current through the coil is limited by the internal resistance of the coil (Pertronix specs a minimum of 1.5 ohm). Unless Jeff has run a real experiment--complete with control setup--I think this one may be a red herring. I tried using 'modern' suppression wires, but with the Lucas distributor cap they missed under load.
 
Bob,
I'm using metal wires with the Moss bakelite cable ends - those are resistor, right? My Pertronix is about 4 years old.
Jeff was saying the pertronix have become more sensitive and less robust overall and that he thinks the original model was more robust.
 
steveg said:
Bob,
I'm using metal wires with the Moss bakelite cable ends - those are resistor, right? My Pertronix is about 4 years old.
Jeff was saying the pertronix have become more sensitive and less robust overall and that he thinks the original model was more robust.
Click to expand...

The 'original' was just called the Ignitor; is Jeff saying the Ignitor has become less robust, or the new models--Ignitor II & III--are less robust? I have an old Ignitor (I) in my BJ8, just put a new one in our BN2--maybe time will tell.

The terminals I'm using I believe are Moss part# 171-620 (but with no embossed label). IIRC I measured them at 15K ohm.
 
A couple of issues to consider here.

First, the battery cable was loose to begin with. A properly tightened cable doesn't just pop off. So if the cable was loose it was most likely intermittent and providing a higher resistance path, increasing the stress on ALL components, include the ignition system. While Brandon's post doesn't say positive or negative disconnected, it really doesn't make much difference.

As noted the engine was running when the battery cable came off. The generator was now providing energy to an unloaded system. With the various components on, to include the radio, an electrical path through those components was present. That path is not intended for high current or voltage. The radio's loud pop followed by smoke was that electrical path acting like a fuse.

Lessons here - check your battery connections regularly. Also check and even add grounds. More electrical issues are attributable to poor grounds than anything else. Even a slight increase in resistance at a ground can cause interesting electrical issues. The alternator/generator energy WILL find a path through your various wiring, with results like the smoking radio. I suspect most Pertronix issues are ground related.
 
That's good to know Steve, I hope Moss can contract a quality vender for our ignition parts soon! This current situation is laughable and sad that in this day and age we have to put up with such Junk coming from the large venders. As for me, I decided to hunt down some New old stock ignition parts and keep a stock of them. I know it won't be easy, But they are out there if you look hard enough. I would hope company's like Pertronix are reading the feedback from this forum!
 
Forgot to add, most electronic ignitions use the coil as the primary impedance in the switching transistor circuit. If you use a coil with too low of an impedance the transistor will overheat and eventually fail. And again, poor grounds can play havoc with that circuit, causing electrical spikes and premature failure.

Which brings up another issue - proper mounting of all components. The modules should be flush with heat dissipating surfaces. Maybe even consider use of a thermal compound (found at your local computer shop) to increase the efficiency of heat transfer out of the electrical components.
 
Hi All,

My original electronic ignition was an Allison which failed after they were acquired by Crane. After a word with Crane’s president, they honored the Allison warranty (once) which was Lifetime. This was back in 1995 or so and the Crane 700 has performed (knock on wood) very well ever since.

However, since my Allison failure, I have kept a full set of original distributor components in the glove box just in case. I know the components are good as they were in the car and running when I converted but it has been so long that I have forgotten how they are installed. Should the Crane fail, I will be on the side of the road reading the manual. Hope it’s a nice day.

Wouldn’t it be nice to drive the Healey without being preoccupied listening for that odd sound emanating from wherever and triggering the diagnosis of what it could be and how to fix it. I drove all over the country in my Healey, got married in it and even brought my son home from the hospital in it. It was our family car for quite some time and is in better shape today then when I relied on it to get to work (although it was well kept then as well). I really appreciate the Forum and its contributions but miss the ignorance of my youth and the bliss of driving my Healey and not realizing that has bee stripped by my acquired knowledge.

Ray (64BJ8P1)
 
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It is interesting that A) a pertronix Ignitor is not robust enough to handle over-voltage and B) the voltage went so high on BrandonBJ8's car without the battery to regulate it.

Voltage tolerance is only a product of component selection which comes down usually to cost and I'm very surprised that Pertronix haven't considered this situation in their design. A product that leaves its customer completely stranded after an incident that should have been considered in the design phase is not a "drop in" upgrade IMO... In saying that I have Pertronix on both my cars and routinely for the last fifteen years have had the helmet terminals just pushed on by hand as my other car doesn't have an isolator switch and it is a convenient way to disconnect the battery. The Ignitor II claims to have over-voltage protection but is not available for Lucas distributors as it is too tall.

So question B: did BrandonBJ8's voltage regulator operate incorrectly when the battery came off or is it perfectly normal for the voltage to rise up to dangerous levels? If the latter then this is a potential situation we Pertronix drivers all are susceptible to. I must investigate this further. Perhaps there is an option of adding say a 15V Zener to some part of the regulator field circuit to clamp the runaway voltage?

Andy.
 
I'm thinking the way to cure this problem once and for all would be to get a point-type Mallory and perhaps their coil if they have one or a Bosch Big Blue Coil. Push-on wires like the Bosch lifetime ones Advanced sells and Bob's your uncle. Wonder if the 123 or Pertronix electronic distributors would provide any more protection than the drop-in modules.

With Mallory you could get points, which are currently unavailable from our usual suppliers.
 
Another variable - where was the component manufactured? Example - Bosch Big Blue

Looking for primary impedance I found:

Bosch Blue Coils
https://www.ratwell.com/technical/BlueCoil.html

Can you buy the "wrong" 12V Bosch Blue coil? Well apparently, you can. I've never seen such variety in a single electrical item. I've collected all the information I know on Bosch Blue coils to help you find the right one..........


........... Argh
 
MarkP said:
Another variable - where was the component manufactured? Example - Bosch Big Blue

Looking for primary impedance I found:

Bosch Blue Coils
https://www.ratwell.com/technical/BlueCoil.html

Can you buy the "wrong" 12V Bosch Blue coil? Well apparently, you can. I've never seen such variety in a single electrical item. I've collected all the information I know on Bosch Blue coils to help you find the right one..........


........... Argh
Click to expand...
Jeff at Advanced explained the Bosch Coil differences and I went with his recommended Bosch coil.
 
Odd, I'm in Portland, Oregon and just bought two new set of points for a Mallory dual point distributor for one of my street cars.... about 2 weeks ago....from Baxter Auto parts. They are very big in this part of the West coast.
I may be living in the 20th century but I have never had a major problem with points. In fact, I have been racing (my race car) with a Mallory dual point set up for the last 30 years. The only problem I ever had was with the Mallory condensers. So I use Lucas condensers. Otherwise, I am a happy camper with points. My advise is to change your points on your street car every ten years or so....and stop complaining. With my race car I change the points every 5 years or so.
Cheers
 
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