Spitfire Help with Spitfire electrical problem

[Guest]

I have been trying to get my Spitfire squared away. Got it last month, sellers claimed 12,000 original miles and it sure seems like it's for real. I got it with a lot of wires not connected after a body repair. I am at the point of working on the engine compartment and all looks good according to the wiring diagram but I have a problem. Up until a few days ago it would start and run fine but now it starts sporadically and when it does it will run for about 10 seconds and die. When this happens, no spark at any plug or distributor cap. I bought and replaced the Lucas coil today and still does the same thing. Everything is original that I have seen so far. The car still had the 3 original Lucas fuses. I have replaced them also. Is there a way to test the electronic ignition module?

TIA,
Stirkle

 

[DougF]

As far as the fuses, if they are not blown, clean them and the fuse box contacts with very fine steel wool and put them back in.(unless you plan to show the car and want to save them for that purpose).
Have you changed the points, rotor and condenser? Condensers don't take well to sitting for long periods of time.
Replace plug wires if they are old. They accumulate moisture over time and lose their effectiveness. While working on the wires, pull the plugs. They probably won't be a good tan color since the car is not running properly. Clean them off or replace if necessary.
How old is the gas? Smell it. If it doesn't smell fresh from the pump, you may want to drain the tank and replace with new. Top up the oil in the carbs. Don't mess with the any carb adjustments at this point. If the car is truly a 12,000 mile piece, adjustment should still be good. The carb diaphragms may need replaced. Don't play with the timing or any other settings. Replace all of the "wear" items first.
You may find that you have several electrical problems to work out along the way. Before you start messing with the components, clean all of your bullet connectors and other connections in the harness. Coat them with dialectric grease before reassembling. Corrosion is the biggest electrical problem that we have to deal with in these cars.
You will also want to make certain that you have fresh grease in all of your suspension and u joints.
These are all easy things to do. They just take time.
Good luck and have fun!

 

[heliguy]

I think i would concentrate on the electronic module, and/or the wiring too it. Is it the Lucas module or an aftermarket one. There are a couple of adjustments you can make ...air gap i think, been awhile since i worked on a Spit, but usually it either works, or it doesnt work. Sounds like you have an intermittent problem............next time it dies, try moving the wire harness to the module back and forth, see if you can get spark while doing that..........
Hard to troubleshoot something intermittent. Not sure if you can test the module, other than swapping in one that is known to work. Good luck!

 

[myspitfire]

Do you have British manufactured fuses installed in the fuse box?If you installed American brand fuses you may have fire problems also YIKES!Check in with "BRITISH WIRING Co."on the web they carry the correct fuses.Good Luck,The other members may do a follow-up on this important subject.

 

[maya2blue]

Recently cured much the same on my '78 Spitfire (retro-fitted with points/condensor) by replacing the ignition switch - the electrical part, not the key part! (part #218959 or TKC3390 is the one for the '77-'80) See Bently Manual p.499 or Haynes Spitfire manual p.285. Note, that the older (for '74-76) switch sold by VB does not have the same connector and will not fit '78-80's. I am told that the same switch is found on some TR-7's. My problen was quite similiar - sometimes ran and sometimes did not. Runs fine and then stops. All is better now! Harve

 

[guzzul]

Up until a few days ago it would start and run fine but now it starts sporadically and when it does it will run for about 10 seconds and die. When this happens, no spark at any plug or distributor cap. I bought and replaced the Lucas coil today and still does the same thing. Everything is original that I have seen so far. The car still had the 3 original Lucas fuses. I have replaced them also. Is there a way to test the electronic ignition module?

I don't know how you might test the electronic ignition module itself, but if you are not getting any spark at all, then you might try to eliminate other causes and maybe get down to the module that way.

You have already replaced the coil, so rule that out for the moment. What about the cap? Does it have a good graphite centre electrode? Is the cap cracked at all? Does the rotor look ok, not split? You can test the high-voltage wires with an ohmeter to make sure they're not shot. If you're not getting any spark at all I would only worry about the wire from the coil to the cap at that point.

Did you try checking to see if you have power to the distributor? Look for where the distributor plugs into the wiring harness (a 2-piece, lock-sided connector at the dizzy). If you unplug that, you can test to see if you have wiring-harness voltage at the center terminal (white wire), using a test light or voltmeter. If no power, then you have got a problem in the harness or at the fuse. You can also check for voltage at the white-wire side of the drive resister (square aluminum block should be mounted close to the dizzy with a white wire and white/blue wire connection).

If you have power going to the distributor, but no spark, then test the harness connections at the coil and the wire from the dizzy to the coil. Reconnect the dizzy to the wiring harness, and disconnect the ignition wire between the coil and the cap. Unplug the + terminal at the coil (white/yellow probably) and check for continuity to ground. If not, you have a problem in the wire harness between the coil and ground. (If you have a little blue capacitor connected at the + terminal, just unplug it also and leave it unplugged while you test.)

If the + side of the coil is ok, unplug the terminal connection at the negative side of the coil (white/slate wires) and connect a voltmeter or light between the white/slate terminal and a good engine ground. Crank the engine a few revs to see if you're getting any voltage registering at the coil connection as the distributor makes/breaks. Its a pretty short pulse, but you may be able to see it with a light. If so, your dizzy is probably ok and I would be back to looking at either the coil or the high-voltage circuit (wires, cap, rotor).

I would be careful not to leave the ignition switched on too long with a circuit through the distributor to ground. You can easily burn out the module just by leaving the low-voltage ignition circuit on without running the car. You may have already done that inadvertantly while trying to get your wiring right, but hopefully not.

If you find you have no power on the white-wire circuit, go back and look at the top fuse one more time. Both sides of that fuse support different circuits, and I have had problems myself where one side of a fuse (e.g. green circuit) is fine, and the other side is not, but the fuse is ok. Check the connectors carefully.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for all the info Ross. I have a sad feeling that I cooked the ignition module while trying to get the directionals connected correctly. I recall having the key in the on position so I could test the directionals and I had the battery charger connected so as not to drain the battery. As I think back it must have been 5 or more hours working on the front lighting harnesses. Problem with the shutting off by itself started right after that day. Until then I could run it for as long as I let it run.

Crap!

 

[Guest]

Okay, so I figured I'd just change the ignition module on the Spitfire today. I looked it up for 77 Spitfire and all sources show the standard 4 pin type GM ignition module. When I took the cap and rotor off, there is nothing under the plate that looks like the ignition module that it called for in the parts books.
I have original EID Lucas distributor with the big amplifier on the side. Is that the ignition module on that particular distributor. If so, should I upgrade to Pertronix or other aftermarket ignition?

 

[guzzul]

I have original EID Lucas distributor with the big amplifier on the side. Is that the ignition module on that particular distributor.

Yes, 'ignition module' is the term generally used for the amplifier circuit, which is that square block on the side of the dizzy. A number of the EID distributors were retrofitted with CEI electronics, in which case you would have a separate box mounted external to the distributor, sort of like the Crane ignition systems.

... should I upgrade to Pertronix or other aftermarket ignition?

The amplifier module can be removed from the distributor, and its replaceable if you can find one, but I don't know if you can get it any more. Maybe from ebay or NOS somewhere. Jeff at Advanced Distributor would know if you can get just that part.

Sure, if you're convinced the electronics are fried you could put in a Pertronix Ignitor or similar unit. They're pretty easy to install, you can leave the old amp and vacuum unit in place, the vacuum unit will still work and they appear reliable. Shop around, but I recently saw Retro Rockets had Ignitors for about $85. If you search this forum you'll find lots of discussion about various alternatives.

Before you go that route, though, check the distributor itself to make sure the shaft bearings aren't worn (i.e. no wobble in the shaft). I would expect if you have low mileage, the dizzy itself would be ok.

 

[Guest]

New battery and alternator was installed this morning and the car started and ran without a problem all day. Is it possible that the car was just not getting enough juice to run the engine properly? I know that the battery that was in it was not the correct one for the car and the alternator had not been used for 30 years. I was able to procure a NEW Lucas alternator for $95.00 and a NEW battery for $55.00 so I just went ahead and bought both so I would have a fresh starting point and as it turned out, it seems to have corrected the sporadic starting problem.

 

[guzzul]

Is it possible that the car was just not getting enough juice to run the engine properly? ... it seems to have corrected the sporadic starting problem.

hmmm...maybe we misunderstood your earlier description of the problem.

I understood that the engine would quit, but you could still crank it fast enough to start it, but when you did turn it over you didn't get any spark. If that is correct, then I would say no, the battery and alternator would not cause (or fix) that problem. If you have enough juice to crank the engine over, then you should have enough power to generate a spark.

If the engine actually wasn't turning over, then the ignition problems are indeed secondary.

Maybe something else you did in trying to diagnose it has fixed the original problem?

Are you sure the alternator needed replacing? You could always put the old one back in and test to see if it's working properly. Same with the old battery. See if the problem comes back.

 

[Guest]

The engine was always "turning" over (until battery went dead) but no matter how much I charged the battery, it would not take long to lose its charge. I'm thinking maybe the voltage regulator was not working properly in the old alternator. All day yesterday, it literally would start with the first turn of the key so I could not tell if the starter was turning a lot faster. But before the new battery and alternator, there was definitely no spark at coil wire or plug wires when it would cut out and die.

 

[guzzul]

Well, if its working, great. Stranger things have happened. If the problem comes back, just post.

 

[Keoke]

Do you have British manufactured fuses installed in the fuse box?If you installed American brand fuses you may have fire problems also YIKES!Check in with "BRITISH WIRING Co."on the web they carry the correct fuses.Good Luck,The other members may do a follow-up on this important subject.

Big misunderstanding here. Go to "Fuse equivalents [ US to UK]" on the web. Then you can get your replacement fuses at Pep-Boys.---Keoke- /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif