TR6 Help! Starter runs with ignition in on position

[gbtr6]

Got my TR6 engine in and ready to start. Turned it over for a while without the plugs to build oil pressure and it came up to 50# on the starter. Put the plugs in and tried to fire it up. It tried to catch and ran a bit, but the starter continued to run in the on ignition position. I didn't disturb any wiring inside the car, just in the engine compartment.

How ow do I correct this? Any help appreciated.

Thanks,
Perry

 

[TomMull]

I assume starter worked ok with plugs out, i.e. stopped spinning with the key. That would suggest at least, that the problem is not electrical. You can confirm this by looking for voltage, or lack thereof, at the small terminal on the solenoid, with the ignition switch on the run position.
If there is voltage at that post, it could be from a ground feedback, or other incorrect wiring.
If not, about the only other thing I can think of is a broken, loose, or dirty bendix spring.
Tom

 

[gbtr6]

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. No, the starter continued to run while turning the engine over without plugs. Got the oil pressure up and then put plugs in. It wants to start, but I dare not if the starter continues to run and be engaged. I am hoping it's a bit dirty from sitting. I will try again tonight and will check the current at the solenoid post. If there is current there in the on position, what could be the cause of that?

 

[TRopic6]

gb,

I had that happen and it turned out that the starter relay had stuck (due to a broken spring inside). Here is a picture of the Lucas starter relay; it's the bottom one. The white/orange wire on the left provides power from the ignition switch (via the Seatbelt Module) and closes the relay when you turn the key to start. 12V from the large brown wire at the middle connection is then connected to the starter solenoid via the large white/red wire on the bottom right connection.

If power is at that lower right connector when the key is in positions other than start there is a relay problem. In a pinch, you can turn the engine over by connection the large white/red wire to 12V - make sure the car is in neutral though.

If your wiring is totally stock, unfortunately the Seatbelt Module acts sort of like a relay to the starter relay. In 1974, Federal regulations required that seatbelts be fastened (for occupied seats) and the transmission be in neutral before the starter could be engaged. British Leyland did this the best they could (I suppose) using the technology available at the time. The SBM can be bypassed and there are non-Lucas relays available. Not just any relay will do, since internally the starter is electrically two separate relays; one for the starter and one to bypass the ballast wire to the coil.

Good luck - Jeff

Jeff

 

[TR3driver]

FWIW, one of my Stags has a similar problem, caused by the ignition switch not reliably returning all the way from the start position to the run position. When it happens, I have to deliberately turn the key backwards just a bit. Probably the spring is broken inside, but I haven't tried to pull it apart yet.

 

[gbtr6]

gb,

I had that happen and it turned out that the starter relay had stuck (due to a broken spring inside). Here is a picture of the Lucas starter relay; it's the bottom one. The white/orange wire on the left provides power from the ignition switch (via the Seatbelt Module) and closes the relay when you turn the key to start. 12V from the large brown wire at the middle connection is then connected to the starter solenoid via the large white/red wire on the bottom right connection.

If power is at that lower right connector when the key is in positions other than start there is a relay problem. In a pinch, you can turn the engine over by connection the large white/red wire to 12V - make sure the car is in neutral though.

If your wiring is totally stock, unfortunately the Seatbelt Module acts sort of like a relay to the starter relay. In 1974, Federal regulations required that seatbelts be fastened (for occupied seats) and the transmission be in neutral before the starter could be engaged. British Leyland did this the best they could (I suppose) using the technology available at the time. The SBM can be bypassed and there are non-Lucas relays available. Not just any relay will do, since internally the starter is electrically two separate relays; one for the starter and one to bypass the ballast wire to the coil.

Good luck - Jeff

Jeff

The wiring is pretty much stock. One thing you mention, the ballast on the coil. I have that and a Lucas Sport Coil as well. Would that be a problem? It has worked in the past as it stands so I am a bit puzzled. I'll try rapping on the solenoid to loosen it and check my wires. My 6 is Mimosa Yellow also.

 

[Graze]

Perry

did you disconnect and re connect the wiring to the ignition switch?

if you have the connections hooked up in the wrong way that will happen

check the wiring diagram for the ignition switch against the way you have it connected

hope that helps

graze

 

[gbtr6]

OK, I got the starter to work properly. However, the way I did it was to take the brown wire off the starter relay all together. Not sure if that means I have a faulty relay. Now I'm not sure what to do. Hopefully this only means a new relay.

The brown wire goes on the spade under the wire in the middle. Any ideas?

Perry

 

[TRopic6]

Aloha Perry,

I see your relay is on top, so the relay operating circuit is on the right and the wires to the starter and coil are on the left. The big brown wire supplies +12V from the main battery cable to the center blade connector. That center connection also has a second blade for a small brown wire to connect to the fusebox. In my earlier photo, you can see it powers the purple, or always hot, circuit. I wonder if your horns/hazard lights, etc has power, as I don't see a small brown wire in there - can you widen the shot to include the fusebox?
Can you hear (or feel) the relay operate when you turn the key to start? The relay could be stuck on, but there are other possibilities. Where does the big red wire go - hopefully not to the coil. Although both the starter and coil circuits are powered when the relay closes, they are electrically separate, This is very important, because when the car is running, the coil is still powered by the ballast wire (or a home-made direct wire). This will supply power to whatever else is connected to the + side of the coil. If you're a cheapskate and adapt a spare horn relay as a starter relay, you'll be surprised at how hot the wires get, as the wire to the starter solenoid will still be powered. A ballast wire won't have enough voltage to keep the solenoid closed, just get real hot (ask me how I know). If the coil had full 12V it might keep the starter going.

I'd pull the relay out and give it an ops check on the bench. You can carefully un-bend the 4 tabs and pull the metal case off. I must have tossed my broken relay out, but there is a small spring that keeps the output contacts apart until the relay operates. If that fails, they probably won't open back up.

Jeff

 

[pdplot]

Us old timers would give the starter solenoid a good rap with a screwdriver handle - ditto the relay. Try it.

 

[TR3driver]

It would have to be a very strange relay failure. Normally, the brown wire is what supplies power through the relay to the starter solenoid. The only way for the relay to activate the solenoid with the brown wire disconnected would be to have an internal short between one of the coil terminals (with the white/orange) and one of the contact terminals (with the WR).

I think it's more likely there is a wiring error outside the relay. What's that big red wire? What happens if you pull the white/red wire off?

 

[gbtr6]

Thanks for your replies.

Pdplot, it did have my wife start it and rapped on both the solinoid and the relay and no difference.

Jeff, here are a couple of picturesof the relay and fuse box.

I checked the plugs and need to dial in the carbs a bit. Also, number two isn't firing because it looks brand new. More problems, and it has to go off to storage in a few days. Not sure if I'll ever get it right.

Thanks,
Perry

 

[TRopic6]

HI Perry,

Where does the big red wire go, and do the glovebox and hi-beam flasher lights light work? The big brown wire normally provides power for the relay output and feeds the purple wire circuit - if it's not plugged in I don't see how they get power.

Randell - are you thinking the red wire goes to the starter? I thought it might go to the coil, but not now.

Jeff

 

[gbtr6]

First, I have to say thanks to everyone helping, I appreciate it. Second, I hate, and am horrible at electrical issues. I will re-attach the brown wire and disconnect the red and see what I have. I will also check the Hi-beams and glove box as it currently stands to see if they work or not. There are a few more wiring mods than I thought. I have add on wires that go to the horns, one that goes to the positive side of the coil, and maybe one other. When I restored it 15 years ago, I re-used the harness. Now I wish I had replaced it. I haven't really had many problems before.

After the initial run in, I pulled the plugs and the front 3 looked white, number 2 was like it never fired. The back three were better color wise. I know I need to adjust the carbs. I turned the mixture nuts all the way up, then out 1 1/2 turns as recommended. I'll start there. I have a spare cap and rotor and will try that to remedy number 2 not firing. That's all I can think it could be as I checked the wire and it was in solid. I need to find out the right routing for the heater lines in the back of the motor, to the heater as it seemed to not circulate well. A few things to do then off to sleep for the winter.

Perry

 

[TR3driver]

Randell - are you thinking the red wire goes to the starter?

That could be, but I wasn't thinking that. I really don't have any idea where it goes, it just doesn't look original, and I'm still wondering how the solenoid got power with the brown wire disconnected.

 

[TR3driver]

I know I need to adjust the carbs. I turned the mixture nuts all the way up, then out 1 1/2 turns as recommended. I'll start there. I have a spare cap and rotor and will try that to remedy number 2 not firing.

You might also try moving the plugs around. Could be a bad plug, or perhaps glazed.

 

[gbtr6]

Thanks for the suggestions. I have owned this car since 77 and I don't think the red wire has been a modification. if you look at the connector, it could be non-stock. I will experiment again tonight. I'll also try swapping plugs around, as well as trying the other cap.

Perry

 

[gbtr6]

Well, trying to finish the run in and I have a leak at the thermostat. It's a stripped bolt so I need to fix that. It also has a miss. I think number two is working. Timing is about 24degrees advanced when turning 2000 rpm. Carbs aren't set well yet. It surges, up and down the rev range. What would cause that? I have tried to sync the carbs and they are close.

Perry

 

[gbtr6]

Re: Car runs, but seems to not have any power, intermittent.

I just got the TR out of storage, and it started up fine, but exhibited the same problem as last year, no power. I have not yet done any rebuilding of the carburetors. I do suspect them. One reason I do is, on the way home from storage, I stopped at a light, because the clutch slave leaks, I have to shut off and start in gear. When I did, and accelerated, it seemed to come alive. But only briefly. It went back to being a dog. I am going to check the valve clearances again, but I suspect the carbs. I am assuming not electrical, but maybe there could be an electrical fault as well.

Any input?

Thanks,
Perry