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NutmegCT

NutmegCT

Great Pumpkin
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OK - I may be a confirmed Luddite, but I've seen some really great pictures on the (reduced price!) HDTVs on sale these days.

To see HD programs, you need:

1. HDTV
2. HD signal (HD isn't standard on cable/satellite; you pay extra for it)
3. HD DVD (blu ray). All those DVD's we have, or rent, aren't HD.

But I've also read that unless you're looking at a true HDTV show, you aren't gaining anything but a bigger picture. Some references I've found also indicate that non-HD shows may even look worse on LCD or plasma than they were on the good ol' CRT. Example:
HD on CRT

"This is also why standard (non-hi-def) TV looks fine on a CRT television but terrible on a plasma or LCD television screen."

I can see getting a 16:9 HDTV to watch HD DVD, but then realize I'd need a new DVD player (blu-ray) and new HD DVD's. The DVD's I have (and the DVD player I have) are standard resolution - so the picture would be "worse" on the new HDTV than on my present CRT. Right?

Typical me - suffering from <span style="font-style: italic">analysis paralysis</span>.

Anyone else thinking along these lines: HDTV is great for HD programs, but actually a slight *negative* for all our current DVD's? Now we need two parallel systems?

Thanks.
Tom
 
We broke down last summer and bought the 42" HD LCD. One of those cool thin things. We love it! We do subscribe to Direct TV and pay the extra for HD channels (we have 2 HD TV'S) with the receivers. The Picture is beautiful for watching our beloved HOGS You can see the blades of grass on the field and fans faces in the stands. Its cool.
We do not have a bluray DVD just a normal Digital and the picture is also gorgeous it is much clearer and clean on the HD TV than the older standard one we have in our bedroom.
With prices dropping, I think you could easily find a great deal in the next week if you are truly inclined. (Remember, stores have to pay year end taxes on all inventory in their store on January 1st...so they may be getting a little more desperate to clear the merchandise in the next few days)
 
I've been through this SD/HD stuff for a couple of years now, and am still <span style="font-style: italic">mostly</span> SD. If I could easily upgrade my Satellite system to HD I'd do it <span style="font-style: italic">today</span>, the extra $10/month is worth it.

Nobody in our family has standard-def (SD) monitors/TVs anymore, at our usual viewing distances the images are about the same as what we had before. Up-close there is more pixelation and noise but I think that's because it doesn't blend into the low-res image like it used to on the CRT-type display. It certainly doesn't look bad, or even terrible. Far from it.

The biggest difference you notice <span style="font-style: italic">with some HD sets</span> is the way the aspect-ratios work. If you switch the HD set to 4:3 for SD images you get a big screen with huge vertical black stripes down the sides (not particularly a good thing for plasma either). If you switch to regular 16:9 you get stretched images that can be annoying until you get used to them. Others have zoom settings that sort-of fill the 16:9 frame by cutting off other parts of the image.

<span style="font-style: italic">Some</span> HDTVs (like mine) have a setting that gradually stretches the sides of the image but leaves the center the same as on a 4:3/SD set - the result is a full HD screen with normal looking faces.

Back to the resolution "problem" though: Just because DVDs are SD <span style="font-style: italic">doesn't</span> mean they can't look good or even better on an HD screen. There are dozens of really good and relatively inexpensive DVD players with HDMI outputs that "uprate" SD DVDs so they look better on HDTVs. Not all uprating DVDs are created equal though - do your research and get a good one, but for around $100 you can get a much-improved pseudo HD image from a regular DVD. I've been watching a TV show from the early 90s off of DVD and played on an HD screen from an uprated image the quality is <span style="font-style: italic">excellent</span>. I also watched an IMAX racing documentary off DVD from an uprating DVD player on a friend's massive Plasma screen and for a merely an uprated non-HD image it was absolutely outstanding.

Along those lines, the Sony Blu-Ray player I have does fantastic uprating, giving me the option of playing HD/BD movies with top-end <span style="font-style: italic">everything</span> or making the best of the DVDs I already have. If you're going to the trouble of getting an uprating DVD player and want an HD picture, splurge for a Blu-Ray that does decent uprating and be done with it. I only rent Blu-Ray disks now and for movie watching, it was worth it to me.

A few points:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Normal SD images don't look "terrible" from a normal viewing distance but the images will look different than your old CRT-based monitor [*]Uprating DVD players are inexpensive and do a decent job, giving new life to older SD DVDs [*]If you're in the market for new DVD equipment <span style="font-style: italic">anyway</span> the Blu-Ray players will give you top-end quality plus uprate your old DVDs (research the equipment before jumping in though) [*]Think twice about buying a HDTV/DVD combo, I've yet to see one with a built-in uprating DVD player [*]If you're on Direct-TV the HD service is excellent and in <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> cases an easy upgrade. It's a $10/month blanket charge no matter what plan you have. Negotiate with DTV before upgrading, you can <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">at the very least</span></span> get 3 months of all the premium channels, a free receiver, free DVR for a year, and free installation for the upgrade (we tried upgrading to HD in October and still got free premium channels even though we couldn't get the upgrade) [*]New HD TVs have digital receivers built-in, avoiding the need for a standalone digital-TV receiver for the "big switch" in February - which in many locations will yield dozens of new HD digital channels anyway, even without satellite or cable. Even the local news broadcast in digital gives a jaw-dropping quality image. [*]All HDTVs are not created equal. If you're shopping for a deal be aware there are cheaper 720 sets on the market, if you're going to spend the money shop for a 1080 set and get full-HD[/list]


<span style="font-style: italic">PS</span>: If anyone is looking to upgrade Direct-TV to HD don't look for deals, just call DTV and go directly to the people to talk to when you want to <span style="font-style: italic">cancel</span> the service. Tell them you're thinking about changing to cable or dish for HD and ask them what they'll do to <span style="font-style: italic">retain</span> you as a customer. The retention people I've dealt with are amazingly low-pressure and easy to work with.
 
Scott - that is excellent. Thanks for sharing the details and your experiences.

Just found this discussion, on Standard Definition problems when viewed on HDTV:


Poor SD on HDTV

There are so many factors involved it's mind-boggling, at least to me.

digital signal quality
compression
signal processors
TV settings, as well as 720 vs 1080 issues
signal strength
screen size
artifacts
complexity of setup
cable vs satellite vs local (and subcategories thereof)
provider "packaging" of HD programs with non-HD programs
edit: and that's just for the SD vs HDTV issue!

yeesh! You get the feeling that most folks don't have a clue about all this, so they just shrug their shoulders and plunge right in. Then try not to think about it.

I remember back when the FCC was first considering color television systems in the late 1940s. Their number one concern: a "seamless" transition with no loss in b&w picture quality when the "new" system started up. And they got it!

Thanks.
Tom
 
Tom: I've been a videophile for some time and just upgraded to a new set. Back when I took the plunge I too was concerned about std-definition on a HD set. In 2001 when we got our first HD Panasonic rear projection set (1080i, 720p), most programing was std-definition. However, as time moved on and cable systems were improved, more and more programing was available. HD broadcast and dvd is now becomming the standard and blu ray is the new HD. If you do, before you buy do your self a favor and look at real blu ray on a true 1080p plasma. That's the one we upgraded to. The best buy right now is Panasonic's line of 1080P plasma sets. Panasonic has a package deal including their blu ray player for free when you buy one of their featured sets. "Planet Earth" on blu ray is breathtaking! Whatever you do, even if the price looks appealing, don't buy a 720P (1080i) set. It would be a step backwards. Go for the full 1080P. Then you can play blu ray at full 1080P definition. Also nearly all standard programming on TV (cable, satelite and broadcast) will have an HD counterpart you will have many years of enjoyment. Good luck

Panasonic TH-58PZ800U
 
Tom, LCD and plasma technology has come a long way since the thread you quoted. They aren't as bad as they once were at processing SD signals (although far from perfect). I'd suggest having a look at one and view multiple signals on it before deciding. Some electronics now actually up-res a signal to high def by filling in the missing pixels with what it thinks should be there. Not perfect but certainly an improvement.
 
My problem is years and years worth of old technology: VHS tapes as well as older DVDs that I like to watch from time to time.

And I seem to recall hearing that music CDs are dying with downloads becoming more dominant- crikey, better keep my CD player healty like my old turntable and casette player, too.
 
Playing CD’s won’t be a problem for the foreseeable future; all DVD and Blue-ray machines will play CD’s.


pc.
 
Quick update:

I bit the bullet and got a Panasonic 42" 1080p HDTV. Also went from SD DishTV to All-channel HD DishTV. Satellite dish gets close to a 100% signal strength.

Set up fine, no problems getting the HD channels. Nice "widescreen" landscape picture. But ...

I couldn't for the life of me figure out why my PBS HD channel was always worse (blurry, artifacts, pixels, tiling) than most of the other HD stations. Did lots of research, forums, even Dish customer service. Nothing helped. Altho' my other HD channels also had infrequent problems, PBS was really poor all the time.

Then I finally reached a Dish CSR who actually did more than just reading a "diagnosis script".

Turns out that Dish doesn't even receive a HD signal from our PBS affiliate, even tho' it's advertised in our Dish "local" channels package as HD. That's why the PBS signal was always so fuzzy. Dish gets the SD signal from the PBS station, then converts it to HD, then compresses it, along with all the other HD stations, into the signal sent to my Dish receiver. HDTV then tries to decompress that already modified picture.

I started asking some further questions from the CSR. He admitted that just because I subscribe to full HD service, Dish can't guarantee that I'll get a HD signal from any of the HD stations. And if I watch PBS most of the time (I do), then I'd be better off staying with SD service, which has almost no picture degradation. CSR also admitted that as more and more stations convert to full 16:9 HD (either 720 or 1080), the providers (cable, satellite, etc.) will do more and more compression. And thus the pictures will continue to have problems. CSR actually said anyone is better off using over the air HD signals; any "package provider" will be doing compression.

So I'm going back to my CRT and SD service. I wanted to share what I learned. Even if you pay for HD service, you're likely getting a compressed "package" of signals from HD stations - and may not even be getting all HD stations.

:wall:

Tom
 
I'm going to put an HD antenna in the attic when I do my family room over. The pictures are better with an over the air antenna, but no premium channels and it will still get something if and when the cable ever goes out.

There are a ton of them out there, but when I got my first HDTV (with a decoder built in) that didn't need cable, I tried three and this one was the best. I have a Toshiba 37" and a Samsung 37", both 1080 and the Samsung has the tuner built in. On most stations, the picture is better over the air than on cable.

https://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_HDTVA/

But these are directional, so I need to figure a way to hook up an indoor rotor that will turn it. I've used Terk amplified antennas for FM for years and the reception is better than any other that I've tried.
 
About 8 months ago I looked at my $80 a month cable bill. I said to myself this has to go. I went with a roof mount antenna with a rotor since I live close to the lake the US on the other side of it. I get 24 channels but no premium channels and yes the picture quality is way better.

And no more cable bills so we can use the $80 a month for the odd car part.

Cheers

Mark
 
Mark I couldn't live with only 24 channels. i get about 200 channels + all the music ones.(have to have my football[soccer]you know). Admittedly some of the channels are duplicated and my home phone and internet(4 ip addresses)are with the same company(Rogers). The bad part is my bill is approx $230/mth which includes long distance calling in Canada and the US.
 
I haven't drunk the HDTV/big screen LCD/home theatre Kool-Aid, myself. I have three perfectly nice Sony CRT TVs in my house, one a 27" flat screen WEGA that renders a perfectly clear picture (I'm on cable TV now).

Sure, the hi-def, thin screen LCD/laser/nuclear TVs are better than CRTs, but I just don't think they're worth the exorbitant prices. When my CRT TVs give up the ghost, then I'll buy a modern unit.

And yes, my house has running water and electric lighting, I'm not a Luddite. Just seems that the new Hi-def TV craze is a bit of overkill to me . . .
 
At a pal's home a few weeks ago I saw his whizz-bang HDTV (hooked to a cable service) go all pixellated and said: "compression or bandwidth issues at HQ."

He looked at me like I was sproutin' a third eye. Explained the compression thingie and he got sorta PO'd at the provider's fee all-of-a-sudden. :devilgrin:
 
DrEntropy said:
At a pal's home a few weeks ago I saw his whizz-bang HDTV (hooked to a cable service) go all pixellated and said: "compression or bandwidth issues at HQ."

He looked at me like I was sproutin' a third eye. Explained the compression thingie and he got sorta PO'd at the provider's fee all-of-a-sudden. :devilgrin:
Click to expand...

I think that's what surprises me the most. The widescreen HDTVs are excellent quality; the HD programs are excellent quality.

But the way most folks get the programs (cable/sat/dsl, etc.), they're not getting the quality HD signal produced by the originating stations, due to the providers using compression. A real downer for me after ten years of buildup.

And the more stations that convert from Standard Definition to HD, the more compression the providers will use. (Unless you can get a strong over the air signal.)

Think I'll go back to my 1928 thirty-line mechanical radiovision. No pixel or artifact problems. (And almost no picture - but it's over 80 years ago!)


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tomshobby said:
It has been made law and you expect it to work? :sick:
Click to expand...

Tom - last I heard this afternoon, Congress is on the verge of passing another (!) law to push the Analog/Digital conversion date from February to June!

Doesn't have a thing to do with HDTV picture quality ... but sure shows that we live in the great "state of flux".

T.
 
Hi Tom, glad to hear things will be fixed by June! :banana:

I have some pretty nice AV equipment a little aged but it still works so I have decided to wait until the reality catches up with the hype before spending any money on replacing things.
 
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