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Gunky Stuff

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DNK

DNK

Great Pumpkin
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Friend has a question on his motor


" When I removed the oil pan there was about a 1/8 to maybe 3/16 deposit of a VERY thick gunky GRAY mess in the bottom of the pan. There was gunky oil atop this stuff, but the gray, almost cast aluminum color puzzled me. Why gray? What does this portend for my engine?? Any surprises awaiting further tear-down?"

Some ideas?
 
Don,

Why spoil the end of the movie?

Let's wait for the tear-down so we can all be surprised together.
 
But seriously folks, wouldn't that be a sign of serious main/rod bearing and possible cam/ring/whatever metal wear? If it's gray, it's usually fine metal particulates in suspension.

EDIT:

Wait a minute....what type/brand of engine is he talking about?
 
Most likely, it's OK. That's called sludge, and some motor oils seem to form it while others don't. I don't know whence the gray color, but it doesn't seem to be from metal inside the engine. It may be from breakdown of some of the additives; since the oils that formed sludge for me also seemed to lose their viscosity improver rapidly.

Did you know that 10W40 starts out as about 5 weight oil and then gets thickened with additives? Basically the same thing as STP ... which also can form huge amounts of sludge.
 
Here I go again assuming. I assumed (and we all know what happens then) that he was tearing it down for a reason, as indicated in his original question *Any surprises awaiting further tear-down" . My bad.
 
Is it possible that the oil in your engine has been there about 25 or 30 years and you are just taking it apart now ?

During the first 80,000 miles from new in my 1958 TR3A, I used Castrol 30 and later Castrol 10W30 oil in my engine. I had a lot of sludge and whitish "emulsion" in the pan and also the valve cover which I concluded must be normal with lots of stop and go traffic, short trips and driving in the cold of winter.

Since I rebuilt the engine and finished the complete restoration in 1990, I used Castrol 20W50 for 94,000 miles and had no sludge accumulation in the pan or in the valve cover. Since my next engine rebuild about 7,000 miles ago, I have used Castrol 10W30. I assume that modern oils must be better.
 

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I agree with Don's suggestion. Normal heating/cooling leads to sweating and sometimes you get that gray/milky color when water contaminates the oil (sludge)and does not evaporate. I'd be more concerned depending upon the amount of gray emulsion (blown head gasket).
 
This may not be welcome, nor may it be what is actually there... but grey sludge as a paste in the pan would be (to me, anyhow) bearing babbitt dislodged. And oil changes neglected.

...just a guess, tho.
 
First I agree with the "too many miles between oil changes". Second Long periods of sitting can and will form sludge. When running any gasoline engine that contains motor oil the oil becomes acidic the more miles it is ran the more acidic the oil becomes. This is the reason that vehicles like Motor Homes that sit all winter recommend to change the oil every year No matter how many miles were driven the previous year. Some motor oils are more prone to the formation of "Sludge" than others. Oil additives S.T.P., Slick 50 ECT. are prone to sludge formation. In essence any non detergent motor oil will eventually and especially if neglected form "Sludge". As for bearing wear, well in a since yes and no ... Yes because of the neglect and no the metallic particles themselves`s are not the sludge. Although what ever metallic particles that are worn off of the bearings due to the neglect are suspended in the sludge and also in the remaining oil.
The black you see in used oil is essentially carbon residue from the burning of gasoline. This carbon is essentially the element that causes engine wear aside from the normal friction.
It is important for those of us that store our vehicles during the cold months to take extra precautions to keep our vehicles oil clean and in top condition at all times.
do yourself a favor Put fresh oil in your vehicle before any lengthy storage.
I have one brand of oil in mind that I KNOW is a prolific sludge former but I hesitate to name it here. {I have never heard the name mentioned here on the forum so there is at least a good chance no one here uses it}
Some fact and some opinion but my 2 cents worth
 
I e mail him all the post from this and he sent me more info and he thanked for all the responses. This should about answer all the questions

"I realized that I should add to my post above...the engine (TR6) has not operated in about 22 years!! The car is now 37 1/2 years old. Original mileage is 74K. I'm the 3rd owner. The 2nd owner began a half-hearted restoration, but abandoned it when his job moved him to another state and the car sat in his Dad's garage for 18 years before I bought it about 4 years ago. The radiator, rear brakes and gas tank were all disconnected so I did not attempt to start the car when I got it, but began my restoration adventure assuming that whatever needed fixing would get fixed in the process. It's an attempt at a complete, frame off, down to nuts and bolts restoration, so I'm not too terribly concerned about what may have gone on in the engine unless, of course, I have to replace the block or other drastic measure. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and comments."
 
Don Elliott said:
Is it possible that the oil in your engine has been there about 25 or 30 years and you are just taking it apart now ?

During the first 80,000 miles from new in my 1958 TR3A, I used Castrol 30 and later Castrol 10W30 oil in my engine. I had a lot of sludge and whitish "emulsion" in the pan and also the valve cover which I concluded must be normal with lots of stop and go traffic, short trips and driving in the cold of winter.

Since I rebuilt the engine and finished the complete restoration in 1990, I used Castrol 20W50 for 94,000 miles and had no sludge accumulation in the pan or in the valve cover. Since my next engine rebuild about 7,000 miles ago, I have used Castrol 10W30. I assume that modern oils must be better.
Click to expand...

Don: I don't remember. Maybe you will. When you bought TRusty, were high detergent motor oils being sold yet? I wonder if this might be the big difference. The older cars, 50's and 60's, may have been accustomed to non-detergent oil, thus the sludge issue.
 
The oil in my 1969 TR6 was not changed in 39 years.

I had to drip turpentine thru the engine for a solid
week to get the solidified oil out.

Even after only 40 miles drive, the oil comes out black/brown!!

My next step will be to run kerosene in the crankcase
maybe 100 miles and see what drains out.

FDPO Pedro!!

d
 
Tinster said:
The oil in my 1969 TR6 was not changed in 39 years.

My next step will be to run kerosene in the crankcase
maybe 100 miles and see what drains out.

FDPO Pedro!!

d
Click to expand...

Dale: Before you do that, please consider that:

1. if you run 100% kerosene in your sump you will surely trash your engine long before you reach 100 miles - kerosene can not provide sufficient lubrication.

2. I have heard of using kerosene for a very short period of time, as a flushing agent. However, you will be loosening lots of crud. :nonono: This includes the crud that builds up around the piston rings and valves. If you loosen this stuff (with the kerosene) sometimes it will result in high oil consumption and otherwise poor performance.

Hopefully others will chime in.
 
How in the world did we get to this engine doom and gloom again after hearing this about the car from the island experts just two days ago?

"Well......it seems I have a high compression engine
with a nice header as well. "Strong and fast" they said.
Nice feel on the clutch and the brakes work just fine.
They were very surprised how smooth the suspension was
over bumps. Steering nice and tight. Right front wheel
bearing soon needs replacement. " A nice overall restoration"

If you do what you say that you are going to do above, take some cash with you for the taxi ride home, because as Frank warned, you ain't going to drive anywhere near 100 miles and when it blows, it won't be pretty inside. Leave the tools and spare parts at home because to take them to the crusher will be a real waste.

Dale you REALLY need to stop reading other peoples posts about their issues and turning them into your issues.
 
Randall - Yes, you are right. That's why I wrote Castrol 30. That was the straight non-detergent grade. In the winter, I used Castrol 10 non-detergent.

Dale - I agree with Randall. Oil will become black with the carbon as noted above. The "clowns" who used to change the oil in my company car at Mr. Lube were amazed when I replied "No" to a complete flushing of the engine every time they tried that scam. You see, since detergent oil became available, the carbon and other material will not form a sludge as with a non-detergent oil. The fact that the oil is detergent grade means that the impurities stay suspended in the oil which should keep the engine walls and oil pan etc. clean of sludge. Black oil doesn't mean that's it's dirty. If you find yours is getting too black too soon, maybe it is cleaning off that old remaing sludge and leaving it in suspension as it should. Try changing the oil and see if it takes longer for it to get black. I would say that after a few hundred miles, the oil will look black on the dip-stick.

I have to say that when my carbs were running too rich, there was too much raw gas staying on the cylinder walls and running down into the oil in the pan. This caused the oil to become black very rapidly. he dip-stick showed black oil in less than 100 miles.

Is it possible that your carbs are set too rich ?

Don't try the kerosene idea. If you have to, after changing the oil as suggested above, try to find out about an additive that you can add to you oil and maybe to the gas tank. Since Randall told us about Marvel Mystery oil, I have been adding 4 oz. to the fuel tank each time I fill it up. I can't say that I have less sludge etc. because I never had any using Castrol products.

But my engine oil goes dark quite quickly and black shortly after an oil change. I don't worry about it. I just change the engine oil every 3,000 miles.

DON - I guessed that the engine had very old oil in it for a long time. I suggest that your friend change the oil, etc. and then try to crank it over. He may be surprised. Maybe it will run fine.
 
Don - Not my engine mine was fine when I tore it apart many years ago.
Doug at the BBS
 
On the subject of gunk & sludge, anyone here used Seafoam cleaner?

I'd like to run some sort of cleanser through the engine as it sat for a number of years. It's running fine now, but I figure it would be a good idea. Suggestions?

Thanks!
 
I ran Seafoam thru the carbs when we got the car,since it had been sitting a while. A lot of smoke and gunk sure went blowing out the exhaust, so I would assume it got rid of some carbon, varnish , etc. Engine was running well beforehand, tho, so hard to evaluate exactly how much better it made it. It seems to have a good reputation, so I figured it wouldn't hurt.

Tom
 
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