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frame sag? rocker sag? help!

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shanesr74

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i am getting ready to begin a resoration of a 67 austin healey. my doors rub badly at the top rear. does anybody know anything about fixing and recognizing frame sag? could it be outrigger sag? any advice would be great!
shanesr74@comcast.net
thanks!
shane
 
Shane, If you are preparing for a restoration I would suggest you read the tips on restoration on British Car Specialist web site about saving everything and photographing all your parts. Depending on your skill level,facilities to work with and equipment and how deep your pockets are will all factor into this project. I would stongly advise you to (borrow if possible)
a frame rotissire to put the chassis on for working under the car and in the foot well areas. Media blast the bare chassis(dont blast the alumimum shrouds)Getting to the door rub part, if you have to replace the seals or rockers put the car on jack stands place them at points were the weight of the car would be distributed as if the tires were on the car/ground,then add weight to simulate or your engine and transmission and rearend, about 600 engine 100 transmission and 150 rearend.Make sure your frame is set level side to side front to back, Brace the tops of your door openings with a piece of steel tubing tack weled in place. cut out and replace one area or side at atime,donot weld long beads but spot small areas itermitenly so you dont warp the metal,mock up the panels to assure fit before welding permant. If it still don't fit ,beat it to fit and paint it to match, This is some of the stuff I have been doing on my Bn7 for the past 2 years, What you are about to start on can be a huge expensive deal,( I'm not trying to dicourage you but be prepared for much work ,much money spent parts that are new that don't fit,usually every piece I buy I have to massage it to fit my car, You didn't say if you have owned the car for a period of time or if you are new to working on British cars, I think the best thing to do when planning a restoration is to start with the best rust free,straight non crashed car that you can find, Rust buckets cost more to restore in the long run than just buying a good car to start with. I wish you all the best on your project... Bob
 
i have noticed that many have looked at the post. have any of you had problems with the doors binding at the top of both front and rear. if so anybody got any advice. if it will help i have pics to share just e mail me your e mail address and i will send you the pics.
shane
 
shanesr74,this problem could result from something as simple[simple in comparison]as correctly shimming the door hinges to having a greatly rusted and sagging frame,bad sills,outriggers,missaligned pillars,on and on.its difficult to tell without seeing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
i have noticed that many have looked at the post. have any of you had problems with the doors binding at the top of both front and rear. if so anybody got any advice. if it will help i have pics to share just e mail me your e mail address and i will send you the pics.
shane

[/ QUOTE ]
I would approach this car from a different angle than that mentioned above...

Assuming that you have an otherwise decent car (runs/drives, etc.) and the only issue you have is the door gaps (that's the only thing you mentioned). I would leave the car assembled and address the sills and rockers individually.

I made up a pair of fixtures that go across the door openings while the door remains on the hinges:

clamp1a.JPG


In the view shown, the fixture would be fitted to the inside of the right door aperture. The clamps pinch the lip that the weatherstrip attaches to and still allow the door(s) to close. The fixture allows you to "jack" the screws to align the door gaps top & bottom.

With the fixtures set and locked down for both sides, you can replace the sills/rockers one side at a time.

I prefer to do the (floors, outriggers,) sills & rockers BEFORE taking the car apart. Why remove all the weight only to add it back? Once the rough and tumble work is done, you can either paint the repaired areas, or disassemble for a ground up restoration.

Here are a few more shots of the fixture(s) to show details:

clamp2a.JPG


clamp3a.JPG


clamp4a.JPG


clamp5a.JPG


clamp9a.JPG
 
I know a very experienced frame and body repairman (40+ years) and he insists on keeping the car assembled with the wheels on the ground when doing repair/welding/alignment/etc. Just something to consider...
Cheers,
John
 
There has been a fair amount of talk in this forum about "frame sag". My guess is that putting two fat boys in the seats of the healey would cause more sag than putting in the drive train. I'd like to hear if anyone has measurements of door pillar distances from each other before and after removing the drive train.
One trick I resorted to for obtaining an acceptable door gap on one of my BN-2 doors was to mill off a little metal from the mounting faces of one hinge (in my case an upper hinge) so as to "tilt" the door in it's frame when it is closed. I was close to doing something much more labor intensive when I looked at how thick the hinges are. I'm pretty sure nobody would detect this without a caliper and the hinge in their hand. It was easy and did the trick. Shimming the lower hinge would not work because then the gap at the bottom would have been too small (at the rear). It also can take a fair amount of time and effort to go through all of the permutations of hinge location. Keep the screws just snug enough to move the hinges around with a mallet and you may be surprised how much adjustment there is doing just that. Be careful of the trailing edge of the wing as it is easy to put them out of adjustment to the point where they hit when the door is opened. Hope this helps.
Jon
 
[ QUOTE ]
Be careful of the trailing edge of the wing as it is easy to put them out of adjustment to the point where they hit when the door is opened. Hope this helps. Jon

[/ QUOTE ]
So very true. Because of the door hinge geometry & the fact that the lower part of the door is inset at the trim line, it requires a minimum of .200" front gap, door closed, between front of door & back of the front fender for clearance. Actually, .220" would be better. With paint build up on the edges, any less clearance will peel the paint the first time that the door is opened. Several other gaps such as hood & rear lid have to be large enough to allow for "swing clearance" on paint build up also. Also don't forget to allow for trim moulding clearances.

Before you start adjusting doors, make very sure that the hinges & or hinge pins are tight. Any slop here will make it very hard to get consistent & correct door alignment.
D
 
[ QUOTE ]
I know a very experienced frame and body repairman (40+ years) and he insists on keeping the car assembled with the wheels on the ground when doing repair/welding/alignment/etc. Just something to consider...
Cheers,
John

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I put a couple 6 x 6 x 24 blocks under each tire to get a reasonable working height (while sitting on a stool) and keeping the weight on the axles.
 
Randy,

Those door fixtures are a great idea. You should rent them out (at least a couple cases of beer)! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thirsty.gif

Cheers,
John
 
Well Shane, I think if I was starring that car in the face I would opt for a Jule Chassis. Your frame is definitely sagging badly at the "A" post point---Fwiw---Keoke
 
You guys probably won't like this..but... I have found the way to fix the frame sag in a Healey. Take the car to a good frame shop have the frame guy strap down the front and rear of the car and push up on the center a lot more than you would think. You end up with about four or five inches or more gap between the top of the door and the latch post. Hold for a while and set the car back down. I have done this several times and it works. Undoes about thirty or forty years of gravity and abuse.
 
If anyone need a straight un-rusted BJ7 frame I got one hanging up in my shop that I would love to see go away for cheap.
 
Shane, Looks to have a lot of rust in the lower areas and some major frame sag. Fixable? .. Are you a good welder/fabricator? I think when you strip the whole car down and blast the frame you will find your answer. I suggested earlier that you keep the car together while you do rocker repairs but I think you need to find out how much needs to be replaced first and then decide if a new frame/donor frame is a more prudent choice.

Cheers,
John
 
[ QUOTE ]
I got one hanging up in my shop

[/ QUOTE ]

Jolly, I hear if you keep them hanging upside down it reverses sag due to gravity! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

Cheers,
John
 
Shane, First let me say I think the door fixtures are a great idea (if I was planning to do another car I would like a set of them)Some things I had to deal with when doing my rockers and mild seal repairs. I noticed some in the discussion recomending the tires be on the ground. All well and good unless as on my car while stripping it down I discovered both front shocks to be frozen in an offset postion as well as a broken rear spring. I do like the idea they presented about do the repair prior to removing the engine except for the fact my engine was already removed when I purchased the car. I guess there are several ways to aproach a rebuild or restoration and you have to decide which would match your skill level and access to facilities to perform the work needed. I think you should estimate what it is going to cost to do this project before you do any work to the car and decide if you can commit the time and money to make this a worthwhile investment. I am not trying to discourage you but by my estimations even if you are extremely talented at fabrication and body work and do most of the work yourself I'd say 25k to do it and add another 20 k if you have to farm it out. Thats to do it right or some what right. Probably take a couple years to do it. Just my opinion and its hard to evaluate how good or bad the car is without looking at it ( if you can, have someone experienced In this type repair evaluate the car).You may want to start with a better chassis if possible.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You guys probably won't like this..but... I have found the way to fix the frame sag in a Healey.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right, I don't like it. When new, or with unrusted or properly rebuilt older cars, the semi unibody design is very rigid. All major structural parts are welded into a single solid piece. The outer sheetmetal is just hung on the structure & contributes very little to overall rigidity. A single jack can be placed anywhere under the car & NO changes in body gap dimensions will occur. Solid Healeys are known for excellent handling & lack of rattles due to the excellent original chassis design. It just wasn't rust proofed much.

A rust weakened chassis "might" be temporarily bent back into alignment but the fix won't last very long & the handling characteristics will still be compromised. There IS no easy fix.

See attached pic of the main structure, all of which must be intact & of original sound metal thickness.
D
148701-AHChassis.jpg
 

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