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TR2/3/3A engine :"stuck" even before it starts!

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Dr_Mike

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I have had this happen twice.

the engine has been stiff since reassembly from scratch, but has been all done by the book. Today I put on the newly balanced fan. moved the crank to TDC using fan blade, took the blades off to insert the dog bolt, and tightened that.
It got to 3.30 with the two old shims.

I reattached the blade assembly in proper alignment. and the crank will not turn. Period.

I could only think there was paint on the joint line of the fan hub, but loosening the dog and pulling back the fan assembly made no difference. It is about half off.( there was a little rotational play on the shaft when I started and that has gone too).very depressing to put it mildly.

any ideas. preferably ones that don't involver starting from scratch.?
 
plugs loose, hand crank, engine at TDC I probably should remove the plugs, bu don't want flying grit in the cylinder.
 
hmm. I did not hold it at all. It tightened down onto the shims without the crank turning at all. (when I Centred it before taking the fan off it moved quote easily ( relatively that is.) Now it is locked. I have taken of the fan again, and backed out the hub partway but it makes no difference. I had thought that I might have paint interference between the hub and the front plate or chain casing.
 
Take the plugs out, put several squirts of oil in each cylinder, and try turning it forward and backward. If it was turning before the repair, you have to be inclined to blame the repair and it is possible that the woodruff key has been dislodged and is now interfering.
Bob
 
Since completing the bottom end assembly, rods and pistons, have you been able to make 2 or 3 complete revolutions of the crankshaft ?
 
slow process, but I am sure I have made a number of revolutions. Stiff but nothing else.

I looked hard at the bottom end and nothing seemed amiss. This was after previous mysterious "lockup" which resolved itself equally mysteriously.

I will check the Woodruff key when I manage to get the hub off again.

Could a too open valve stick to the cylinder at TDC? PO had #8 screwed down as the pushrod had dislocated. I don't think I had got to resetting the gaps as they are done hot with this one... old rocker shaft. A too open valve might stick to the piston head with the assembly oil.????

another interesting day

michael
 
If the No4 piston is hitting a valve you should be able to wind the motor backwards assuming you were turning it fowards when it stuck.

David
 
I don't think it would be a valve as these aren't interference engines - the only thing I've seen is when the flywheel bolts are too long and they interfere with the rear seal - that can bind things up.
 
I think we need more information for a possible diagnosis.
Was the engine removed from the car for disassembly...what work was done etc.
 
sorry...I wrote a response to this but apparently never posted it.
here goes againB
Engine was dismantled a couple of years ago, having never been started by me .block and head were both cracked. head replaced, block had a "lock and stitch" repair, new liners pistons, bearings and rear oil seals and thicker thrust washers. engine seemed stiff to me but smooth to turn. all spare parts accounted for! Fan assembly balanced and attached last week. woodruff key seemed to be in place.( I had difficulty getting it out... see earlier post). fan seemed to turn crankshaft, with a little rotational play, but stuck at TDC. I slacked off tappet #8 which was way too tight. removed fan hub again , and behold there was no key to be seen. must have pushed out an dmay be hiding under the timing cover which will have to come off again. hoping I do not have to remove the ebgine again. and that this is the only problem.
I wishh I had kept a better diary for all to see!

michael
 
It sounds like the missing key may be a player!

I never worry about "stiff". It will all loosen up after the first start. "Locked" is a concern. I've been trying to think of things that can cause the lock-up, but most of what I can think of are not easy to check on an assembled engine.

1) It sounds like the best contender right now is the key caught in the timing chain.
2) This is not generally considered an "interference" engine, in that the valves do not open far enough to reach the space that the piston travels. If the engine has a heavily shaved head and/or higher than stock valve lift...combined with the cam being out of phase...then it is conceivable that a valve could contact a piston and lock the motor. So, be sure to check the cam timing while the front cover is off.
3) Fastener issues mentioned above, like flywheel bolts hitting the block. This could also include clutch issues, like using the long tranny front cover with a later style diaphragm clutch assembly.
4) In general the pistons will not extend above the level of the sleeves, BUT...if the crank were ground to add throw or the pistons had the wrong pin placement for the TR motor, then it could be possible for the piston to contact the head and/or the head gasket. This is highly NOT likely.

I am sure the issue is simple. I just hope the simple fix doesn't require too much teardown to reach it!

Also, Michael, my motor is on the road, and after 300 miles the lock-n-stitch is working flawlessly. We saved our old blocks with it!
 
What kind of fan are you using? Can you pull the hub back off and look in there will a strong flash light to see the key? If it really is stuck, do not try and move it by force like pushing in 4 gear or the starter. How about the starter what kind is that?
 
Those keys are usually firmly in there and don't just come out, but I still think that's what it is. Get a new key and look out for sloppy fit in the crank.
Bob
 
Quick report...I had fitted the surviving old Woodruff Key, and it had indeed come loose and somehow migrated into the timing chain cover where it fell out with a happy clunk. Well i was happy but I cannot imagine how it got there. I replaced it with difficulty, ( it was a couple of thou wider than the groove, and a new one is wider still, but I will substitute with the new one.) Alas the engine is still locked.
I loosened the only open valve: no change. ( the key in the crankshaft is at ten o'clock so no piston should be at the top (?).

Original fan. just balanced. interesting how tight a fit it is behind the tierod to get off and on.

ARP bolts in the flywheel from Moss , so should not be an issue'

Clutch might be a problem, but it is stock, not the later style.

I can recheck the cam timing when it unlocks, but it had appropriate marks on the two sprockets and they were lined up . I can wobble the camshaft with the slack in the chain so I do not think that is a problem.

Starter: was originally the older type, quite incorrect for the bolt-on flywheel, so I found a replacement, which pulls into mesh. It should not be locked in but is worth a look.
Dislocated piston ring? weird thought, not to be entertained.
Do not want to extract the engine again, or remove the head but it does not look good. more action tomorrow'

Thank you all

michael
 
As long as you have the timing cover off I suggest unbolting the cam gear- if it stays stuck with the gear loose you've eliminated the top end at least. I'm unfortunately still thinking flywheel bolts are the problem.
 
You say in your first post that this has happened twice. How did the first resolve and is there a missing key? Is the car in neutral? Will it turn with the starter out? Will the engine turn backward? When was the last time it turned vis a vis your work? Did it turn when assembled while the engine was on the stand? Did you turn it thru at various places during assembly? (Should do it after each bearing cap is tightened.) Did it turn after flywheel was installed? After clutch cover?
Bob
 
The starter could be stuck! If you have a stock starter, you put a wrench on the back of the starter and turn the motor I believes CC. There might be a cap on the end of the back on the armature that pops off to see the square drive. I think ÂĽ inch.
Steve
 
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