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Cylinder Head Recommendations

DJThom

Jedi Hopeful
Offline
From what I've been able to gather reviewing the archives, cylinder head modification is universally recommended as the best way to achieve improved performance (outside of supercharging)

My engine is balanced, 20 thou oversized, has a Brown and Gammon fast road cam and higher compression pistons (9.5:1). I'm running a pair of 1 1/2" SU carbs. But my cylinder head is stock.

Peter Burgess has quite a few options presented on his website. https://www.mgcars.org.uk/peterburgess/page5.html

1) His Fast Road Big Valve is claiming 25-30% increase in bhp.

2) His alloy head. No performance stats provided

3) His xflow head. No performance stats provided.

Does anyone have experience with these products including measured increase in power? Is the incremental power of an alloy head worth the cost especially the xflow head given the fact that you need new intake etc on top of it all?

Finally, are thre alternaives to these that I should look at?

Regards,
Darren
 
Clive Trickey. With the original Siamese'd port head. If ya really want to make a rocket-car outta it, commit to stuffin' a Ford 302 in there.

My REAL opinion is ya should clean up th' holes in the head, CC the chambers and BALANCE all th' reciprocating bits.

...or jus' go find a Sunbeam Tiger. :devilgrin:
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

I don't buy into the claim that modified cylinder head is capable of making 25-30 % HP gain, there not many single things that can boost power to that level, forced induction being one of them. Ok getting back to naturally asperated engines, say you got a nicly ported head, didn't raise your CR and did nothing else, what could expect, I think well below 10% increase. A combination of improvements in the end result in a overall increase. Not long ago a thread started on another forum about the single best thing to do a normally asperated engine, you got alot of folks claiming a ported head, but I know better than that from personal experience. I know compression ratio increase is the number 1 power increaser and we are limited to how much by the gas we have avaialble to use on the street, now I give you the proof that help convince me.

There was on going article recently in a magazine we mostly all read, going thru the build of a very serious A series 1275 build, the builder is very much considered a expert in his field, and that is exactly what I think of him as well, very good builder, and friend of mine. He built a no-holes barred 1275 Midget engine, 1380ccs at 10 to 1 CR. fully ported head, big Rimflow valves, agressive camshaft, 1.5 roller rocker arms, you name it everything that it takes to make power, no expense spared. This engine developed 105 HP at the flywheel on a engine dyno, which is alot for street engine, a very impressive and realistic number, something to be proud of no doubt.

Ok, about 5 years ago, we SCCA guys were handed our first new engine formula in over 30 years, limited prep, the whole idea was the put larger displacement engine with less mods in classes where smaller engines with more mods now only existed. Here's run down of the formula as for items that could make or limited HP, no head portig other than 1" gasket matching, stock carbs other than velocity stacks, .450" limited cam lift measure at the valve with zero lash, stock rocker arms, ;040" over max overbore, stock valve sizes, and a max of 11.0 CR. Mike Miller of Comptune racing and myself did alot of stock head core flow testing on my flowbench to see if some stock heads flowed better than others and no doubt after testing maybe 40-50 heads over the last few years,you better believe there is a difference the better heads flowing a good 5-6 cfm per port than the bad examples. These engines under this formula made 100 hp at the rear wheels, and as much as 115+ at the flywheel.

Ok you've seen a quick run down of the two engines and what hp they developed. So the big question is how can a engine that has less cam lift, no head porting, stock carbs, smaller valves, a good bit less displacement possibly develop a good 10% more than the other engine, what is the only thing the SCCA LP engine has over the street hot rod engine to make more power, the answer is one point more compression ratio. The street engine has the LP engine totally dominated in all aspects other than CR. So for me, this clearly told me the importance of raisng the CR on a given engine as being the #1 hp improvement you could ever do.

Now of course a overall plan of a better camsahft , more CR, (I don't recomend anything over 10.0 to 1 on the street for obvious reasons), a nicely ported head, bigger valves, big bore, all will pay off in the long run, but if you're looking for the smoking gun as the very best way to increase power, raising the CR is the way.

Now I port cylinder heads for customers, so I like to sit here and tell you it is the big punch you are looking for, but IMHO, it only one ingredient in the recipe needed to bake the cake.

Darren what pistons do you have that alone raise the CR to 9.5, most MGB shelf piston only claim 8.8 to 1.

FWIW, I'll be starting on my new personal engine in the near weeks to come, here's my recipe fo what I'm building for myself.

Early 18GB engine
1900 pistons
later straight rods 18v rods,needed for the 1900 piston, ligtened , polished, balanced and ARP bolts
Flat side steel crank, wedge lightened, balanced
Ported cylinder head with bigger 1.7 gas flowed intake valve and larger exahust valves, uprated valve springs I don't have to worry with the exhaust vlave reliefs with the .080" over bore. I'm not bothering with roller rockera rms, I'm convince 1.5 offer little to no gain over stock, and only the 1.625 increased ratio offer an increase and with the cam I'm using I'm satisfied with the cam lift I'll have.
APT VP 12 cam, I could go a little more on cam, but this will make for pretty serious street cam with having a crazy high idle, it should cleanly idle at say 1200 rpms, and be plenty streetable.
10.0 to CR
Aluminum flywheel
ARP hardware thru out.

The idea is to use lightened internal comnenets and aluminu flywheel to hope to induce quicker reveing engine from the B, compared to the 1275, it's kind of dog at reving quickly. The 1900 over bore should add torque, and the ported head with bigger valves should help it breath good, and the cam should shoulf give a nice powerband.

Ok now on to carbs, I'm a frim believer tha bigger isn't always better, every HS6 carb MGB I ever seen has a slight bog off throttle, even in race trim where it doesn't really matter, asn they spend most of their time wound uo anyway. DCOE Weber increase top end powe but at a sacrafice to low and middle power, a downdraft Weber is not even a consideration. So I'm using modified HS4s, port intake to match the head, thinned shafts modified stock velocity stacks open up in the cneter and the throat of the HS2 ported to math the ID of the modded stock v stacks. The HS4 will give me the quickest throttle response and since I do alot of very tight mountain running, this clearly the choice for me, I need the carbs to snap when I ask them to perform in the twistys.

I already have a Peco headers and complete exhast that will stay the same, outside coating the header. Also I've got a new T( 5 seed kit, but this more about highway cruising when I need to do that, and making the car more liveable for travel.

In ever rwally considered the SC, I want a easy to work on car, and the SC takes up alot room, I want simple clean, uncluttered and easy to work on.

I never even considered the x-flow head, they are cast here in the US Darren in case you wondered, not in the UK, no reason to make one travel across the Atlantic twice :smile: The x flow to me is a add on not necessarly meant to be, it extremely clutters up the right side of the motor, makes oil filter changes , ignition tuning and other work a nighmare, no thank you. Then add to that most pro head porters done't want to port these heads due to cast flow issues, same goes for the normal 5 port aluminum head, I don't want any aluminum aftermarket head on my engine, again no thank you.

Ok, there's my personal recipe of what I want to do, not for everyone, but what I want for my MGB.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Hap, thanks for the great response. We are on the same wavelength. I hear you on the xflow as working on the Elan is a real treat. Fortunately I have a 6 foot arm with 3 elbows.

I want to do exactly what you suggested for your head with mine. How about you practice on yours and then I'll send you mine in the off season?

Do you port and polish the carb intake manifold to match the head so there is not step up or down? If so, what size carbs should I be looking for? I currently have the 1 1/2 but they are the ones with the external float bowls. Our local flea market scene starts next week, so tell me what I need to be looking for.

My dad was an engine design engineer at GM(corvette, 3.4 DOCH etc.) When we rebuilt the B 15+ years ago, we dressed the clyliner head out a bit and ordered custom pistons to get the CR back up to 9.5:1. We're 20 thou oversized I believe, but can't remember for sure. Will measure when I get the head off.

I've also read the stock MG manifold is nearly as good as a header. Is that correct? I have 2" straight pipe with cherry bomb, no restictions.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Darren, sounds like you have HS4s, with the side mounted float bowls, if so then you have the best SU in the 1.5" size in my opinion. The HIF4s are decent carb, but I still like the HS4s better, if for no other reason you can access the bowl and replace needle and seat valves or set the float level without removing the carbs from the car. I love things that easy to work on, so I give the nod to the HS4s.

Yes I match the intake to the head as best I can.

People claim the stock exhaust manifold is as good as headers, I never tested one against the other, but for sure it is a good design and worthy enough to leave in place.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Darren said:
Fortunately I have a 6 foot arm with 3 elbows.

All the better to access the distributor on the Elan. :wink:

I've developed the same "extra joints" and lots of folks say in addition that I have "Lotus fingers". Able to access stuff hidden or buried deep in th' bowels of th' machinery.

I believe we have a set of NOS +0.040" flat top pistons for an 18GB MG here in a box, BTW. If anyone's interested, lemme know and I'll go "diving" fer 'em. :laugh:
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Hap. It sounds like I'm not going to have to get as radical as I thought. All I really need is a head/intake overhaul...and a set of those VTO wheels.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Darren, I do all sort of head work, I probably do as much stock cylinder head overhauls as I do head port jobs, if I can help there, let me know. Here's a break down of the work that goes into a stock head rebuild.

Disassemble and inspect.
Degrease
Pressure check
Remove guides
Bead blast complete head
Clean again
Install bronze guides and fit to valves
Install hardened exhaust valve seats, (sometime a really worn head will need new intake seats as well, but this is rare)
Cut three angle on seats
lap valves to visualy confirm seat seal and seat thickness
Resurface head's deck (a compression increase can be done at this time to customer's specs)
Clean some more
Mask and paint head to customer's color choice
Weigh all valve springs and shim to desired seat and nose pressures
Assemble completed head

A fair amount fo work goes in to comprehensive cylinder head overhaul vs a quickie valve job, but it pays dividends in years of service.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Just when I thought this was getting simple I notied I have a slight water wick out the side of my head. So it looks like I have to find a head to modify rather than having work done on my existing head.

I would like to do a 1.7 valve setup like Hap described above. My engine number is 18V883AE-L368. I have not been able to decode that completely on either this site or the others. I have flat top pistons. Is there anything I have to worry about versus valve clearance etc. with this block?

Is there a specific type of head I should be looking for, and how would I identify it? The current head is definitely NOT the original. I have a '76 but the airpump and zenith carb are long gone. The head does not have the smog ports so it could be off anything for all I know.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

If it has no "smog" ports it's an earlier 18GB head. Pre-'68.

That'd be the head I'd desire for mods, BTW.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Darren, your head not having smog ports could means a few thing, you could have a Euro spec head that would not have had smog ports, some whereimported here as replacment, but more than likely you have the early 12G1326 head that was used on the 65-68 MGBs, you might even have a 12G906 that was used on the early 3 mian MGB, say 63 to 65. Those a re more rugged heads as for cracking than the later heads esecially the dreaded 1974.5-1980 CAM1106 heads, the only place early pre smog head seem to crack is around the head stud boss near #2-# saprk plug and nomrally only if grossly overheated. Thes heads have larger combustion chamber as for volume that the heads use on 18Vs, so normally would decrease the CR with normal off the shelf piston offerings, but with your custom flat top, all bets are off, you have to do CR formula from scratch, and the early head should work on that combo, it is exactly the head I prefer in the vintage MGB race engines. As for valve clearnece even with flat top and lesser deck height vlave to piston clearecne will not be a issue with any cam widely used in thes engines, even race cams, but exhaust vlave clearecne to the block can be a issue, the later 18V eangine used a exhaust valve cut out in the block for clearecne, when head and blocks are decked, higher lifts cams used, sometime in mostly race trim, the block exhaust valve reliefs has to made depper, bores size under .040" the exhaust valve can hit the block when all these mods are done, .040, is close the exhust valve can just rub the side of the clyinder bore, bore sizes .060 or over it becomes a non issue, this is good reason to up the exhaust valve size on hot rod motor unless you are darn sure you have the clearence to not hit the block with the exhaust valve.

In the race MGB engines, it becomes quite exercise, the heads are decked alot as are the blocks to get the CR up, then real high lift cams are used, so the exhaust reliefs must be deeper in the block and then that takes the position of the first ring land into play, the custom race pistons used have to have the first ring land moved downward. I always tell people modification is like lying, once you start, you have to continue to work it all out.
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Hap Waldrop said:
this is good reason to up the exhaust valve size on hot rod motor unless you are darn sure you have the clearence to not hit the block with the exhaust valve.

And make sure you have what you think it enough clearance and then a little if you run a high lift cam.

On a 3 main I had built with a cast iron head and large (late) valves, I measured the usual way - assemble engine, put dial indicator on keeper with valve fully open, zero it and then used something to press valve open further until it touches, measuring the clearance. I thought I had sufficient with around .040". When I next refreshed the engine, you could see faint impressions of the valve heads in the carbon in the reliefs cut in the cylinder walls!
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Bill said:
I thought I had sufficient with around .040". When I next refreshed the engine, you could see faint impressions of the valve heads in the carbon in the reliefs cut in the cylinder walls!

Sounds like "racing tolerances" to me, Bill! :wink: :jester:
 
Re: Cylinder Head Recommendations, long post

Yep, .040" is not alot of clearence, you can get that much stretch in a vavle under running conditions. You can use the the springs that comes off a rocker arm assembly for a test valve spring for checking valve clearences, works nicely.
 
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