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Cyl Head concerns ?????

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George Zeck

George Zeck

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After many tries of getting my *$%#@ car working -- I am getting frustrated. Got really abused by a local mechanic for a re-coreing of my radiator & new water pump; the car still has issues and proves undrivable ....

Key Points: Car sat in FLA for 18+ yrs unused. Water pump worked BUT in/outflow tubes 100% cloged with "junk".

Mechanic suspects the "water jackets" are cloged inside of the cylinder head and need cleaned out (and probably a rebuild of the cyl head). [see water pump above] Estimated cost for this is $2,000 !!!! (not a complete engine rebuild, just a "guess" on the problem -- could be more). I am not confortable with $2k guesses.

Drove car around yesterday -- ~ 15 miles total over 2 diff "road tests". Some type of pressure forces the coolant out of the radiator overflow tube (pressure tested; OK for leaks)and req. refilling. Towards the 2nd trip (with now a hotter engine) -- oil pressure dropped to 20lbs and slight rattle was heard when we pulled back to the shop (took it easy once we started seeing the fall in pressure). Using an "infra-red temp sensor" -- radiator showed 125 ish (and gauge did as well / sensor is in radiator) / thermo housing showed 180 (good). 1 inch over from the thermo housing; on the block showed 270 ish. Moving from # 1 cyl to # 4 temp gradually increased to 350.

Mechanic's thoughts were the engine block is getting so hot that it's "cooking" the oil, turning it from a thick oil to a watery consistency (like cooking a turkey in a fryer). When lost oil "vicosisty" -- it doesn't stick & lube the items it should and the engine heats up even more. A vicious & dangerous cycle.

The questions I have are:

A) Does the above scenario make sense for a car that had a full coolant flush, but did sit for so long ? (In flush; used radiator hoses and thus bypassed water pump) ?

B) Doesn't $2k seem like good $$ after bad (& outrageously high). It's fixing only a part of the engine. Couldn't I rebuild one (friends and I) for much cheaper (say ~ $1000) and have a newer engine and 1275 power (versus current 1098)

C) What is causing the coolant to flow out of the overflow tube (not a little but; but what seems like a good gallon of 50/50 mix) ?? Could they be anyhow related ??

D) Being I really haven't driven the car yet and I have invested what it's worth currently (~ $3k) -- this repair (big $$) puts me in the red. When do I say junk it ??? I'm simply afraid of the repairs that happen after it's gets some useage. I didn't expect to make $$ on this, it's a hobby -- but my "worse case scenario" is having $10k into a $3k car. $4k - $5k and being able to drive it for a while is OK.

This is probably more "belly aching" (trying to keep it clean Basil)-- but if anyone has resurected a "basket case" -- any experience after it becomes "driveable".

On the positive side -- before it heated up too much -- the engine sounded & performed quite nicely. peppy & smooth. Hopped on it a little bit and it was fun (brakes worked quite well / suspension was decent).

Any help for me here "at the crossroads" would be really appreciated.

Once again; sitting on the side of the road.

George
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
 
George,

Just about all LBC owners are faced with the fact that they will most likely put much more into a car than they could ever get out of it - But you have to remember the intangible - the fun factor, etc.

I'm not saying that you should dump a huge pile of money into an iffy car, but you said it ran well and gave you a thrill before it heated up - My suggestion is to buy a 1275 - just like you said - go through it like a dose of the salts and swap it out - Then, as time and money permits go through the original engine and put it back for a spare or a bargaining chip should you decide to sell it. The investment in this scheme should be reasonable and ( Maybe $2K, but you'll have 2 engines instead of one clunker) The first time you cruise with the top down and everything's in the green you'll ask yourself "What could I have been thinking when I almost thought of selling out?"

Chin-up my friend - and remember - they ain't makin' em any more!

Bob M.
 
I would suggest removing the thermostat and running it without. The car will run cooler than with one, but any improvement will show up right away. It is possible that the water jackets are clogged. Did you remove the water pump? I must assume that you cleaned out the stuff that was clogging it? $2K following what you have already spent does not seem to make much sense, especially if there is still no guarantee that the problem will be cured. A DIY rebuild will cost considerably less, but so would buying a used but good 'A'-series lump from a trusted source (some of our members may have a spare they would sell you) and then you could rebuild the existing unit at your leisure.

If the rest of the car is good then there is no point in junking it. There is much to be positive about according to the rest of your post, just take it one step at a time and be patient. Is there any way of increasing the pressure used in the flushes? Can you pull the cylinder head and inspect the condition personally? Hang in there!
 
Compression leaking into the coolant can make coolant come out. That is how a blown head gasket does its evil work. A worn out radiator cap will do it too. Far less evil. The radiator cap went out in my Seven and it would boil over until I replaced it. A little pressure, and it would loose coolant. Less coolant, it gets hotter hotter means more pressure, more coolant loss more heat etc. etc.

I say pull the head yourself, not rocket science, (far less nasty of a job than say, brakes to me) look at the head gasket if it is bad, you should be able to see it. You will also be able to visually inspect a lot od the water passages too, and clean them some. Have the head milled flat before you reinstall it. Have the valves looked at while it is off.

Don't get discouraged. There is tremendous satisfaction in diagnosing and repairing little problems.

You need to understand though, most cars aren't parked and left unused when they are functioning properly.

As to putting in more money than it is worth, here is one rational: Non working car is worth very much less than a working car, to get even a reasonable price for a car it has to work.

If you were to consider say, selling yours and buying one that works for the price you say you have in yours, there is no guarantee that it won't have serious problems pretty soon. If you have gone through the hydraulics etc on your car, get the cooling sorted, repair whatever is the root cause of the cooling problems (and that scarey sounding noise) you will be well on your way to knowing what you have under you. It does not really add value but it adds confidence. There is the 4000 dollar car that you know is solid and mechanically sound because you fixed it, and there is the one in the classifieds that you don't know what it is. There is value in that confidence, even if it doesn't translate to "resale" value.

I have rationalized a lot of expensive repairs (Mostly on my Westfaila's, the Fords and Lotus are low maintenance)using this logic.
 
WAY, WAY, WAY to much for a cyl head rebuild. It's just not that complex of a head. The 1275 is the easy move, and worth the money, but you could probably find a good 1098 head for not much. Start asking around!! Heck, you could by the new aluminum head for less than half what he quoted

https://www.rivergate5speed.com/spridget_performance.html

As far as the work you have had done. I just replaced the water pump on my big Healey and it cost $80. My radiator cost $70 to have dissaseblemed, cleaned, and reassembled, but he would have recored it for $300. The price on a sprite would have been lower if anything. The removal of both and the reinstallation was less than an hour each.

To bad you aren't in Houston, one of the members here found a cheap machine shop and brought his parts from his Bugeye motor in parts to the last meeting to show off the work. Very impressive. The motor was put together at a tech session at his house a couple of weekends ago.

Don't junk it, I still miss my Sprite.

Good luck
Patton
 
George, the head gasket sounds as though it could very well be the culprit, particularlly with the increased temps toward the back. Are you running with the heater shut off valve open? Sometimes these things will air lock at the back, and an open heater valve will allow the air to be burped from the rear of the engine.
As far as the $2000.00 goes, I just looked at the VB catalog, and they are offering a rebuilt head for $690. Quite a difference. I'd do a compression test on it first, and see if it shows anything. Another test that a good radiator shop can do is to check for combustion gasses in the coolant. That will absolutely pinpoint a blown gasket.
As far as switching to a 1275, I would imagine you can find a good running 1275 for less than 500 bucks.
Call Dave at the Winners Circle on Rocky River Road and see if he or Rob have anything laying around. (216 889 4666)
Dave and Rob are two of the most knowledgable Sprite guys on the planet, and are always willing to help.
Don't get discouraged and toss in the towel yet, or I may have to come down and buy the car! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Jeff
 
Who actually flushed the system? What did they use? How long did it flush and did you actually see it? I would suggest flushing it again with a fairly strong cleaner.

As said already, pulling the head just isn't all that hard. I would definitely do that myself and check the gasket.

Bruce
 
I flushed the system both forward & reverse. Used garden hose. Also drove it for a brief time (2 - 3 times; couple of times) with "super flush" in it from Prestone or similar. The problem I had with that is directions said drive car for 3 - 6 hours. It's not in that kind of shape to do that.

Question on heater valve: appears closed. Read prior links on this topic and unsure if this is a problem or not. Why would the Brit's design something that could fry the engine ??? Value is seized. Could try a little "muscle" on it -- just felt if it is a prob -- other''s just overshadow it >> ?? <<
 
George, I'm sure it wasn't designed to "fry the engine", it's just that in my experience, it sometimes can help in cooling the thing by running with the valve open. I run all of mine open constantly, and the only overheating problem I have ever had was the result of a blown head gasket.
Jeff
 
I recall cleaning out a cooling system on a 1932 Buick I had many mnay years ago. I had to allow the car to simply idle for X amount of time. It sure cleaned out a lot of junk from the system and ran much cooler. I wonder if there is a different cleaner you can use? Letting a car idle might not allow it to get as hot but still clean it. I would give it at least another try. One clenaing may have not been enough.

Or pull the head and visually see how the passages look. Sometimes a coat hanger can get to some clogged areas. And of course this allows you to check the gasket.

Regardless I would give it one more cleaning.

The heater valve being open just allows a tad more cooling for the engine by using the heater core as a radiator. With fan on full it helps some. But the car should not have to have that valve open.
 
Heater valve, when open, cools Cyl #4 better than when it's closed.

Thermostat or blanking sleeve is required to allow radiator to work. Don't run without one of them. Purple Ice/Water Wetter can help reduce water temps when the system is corrected.

Head replacement is a lot cheaper than what you have been quoted.

Take care-Steve
 
run the engine with the radiator cap off. If you see lots of bubles or if the water shoots out of the radiator suspect a blown head gasket. Very common with sprites and mgbs. Been there.
 
George
It really sounds like a blown head gasket. A simple test that you can do is to run the engine with the radiator cap off. If after the thermostat opens you are seeing air bubbles coming up through the coolant you are pumping air-hence blown gasket. Removing the head is simple and can tell you much about cylinder condition, valves, and water jackets. Use a quality new gasket. You may want a machine shop to check the head for warpage. You should be able to have the head rebuilt for under $500 if you do the R&R yourself.
Mike
 
I will add my voice to the head gasket therorists.......it really does sound as if that is the problem.....not the end of the world and easy, if a little time-consuming to fix. Relatively cheap too.
 
Thanks all for your thoughts and advice. In putting the pieces together from everyone's comments. I think my course of action will be:

A) Do compression test (have a friend who is giving me the equipment). The coolant does "burp" inside of the radiator with cap removed. 99% sure of answer, doesn't hurt to go the distance.

B) "Draft" a friend to assist w/ removal of cylinder head. Look inside -- afraid that the same "junk" that corroded the thermo housing & water pump, probably has "mucked" up other area's (like water jackets). Hope to be able to clean out insides, chip out carbon (I have severe run-on) and pay close attention to Cyl # 4. Of course; replace valve gasket & cyl head gasket. (Anything else I should pay attention to while I'm apart ????????).

Also -- with my friends help -- he'll be able to identify the "blown gasket" -- to be honest; not sure what I am looking for.

C) Pay some attention to heater valve. Hopefully I can get it open; otherwise, must replace (any advice here would be helpful !!!).

D) Being "Mr. Optimisim" -- the problem will be fixed and I'll run some "super coolant flush" for the recommended 3 - 6 hrs to help clean out the block a little more and of course; flush system a few times.

With some luck -- I can make a determination on the head this week and get her running. I belong to a "after-hours" course here in Cleveland that starts the following week where we have full run of a shop: expensive tools galore, 5 lifts, 2 allignment racks, etc .... I just have to be able to drive her to the shop to begin the "minor things" there (can't / wouldn't leave overnight).

Thanks again for your help and any help in the above would be very appreciated.

Tx-

George
 
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