Clutch Pedal Won't Go All The Way To The Floor

[Patrick67BJ8]

I'm in the process of completing my drivetrain installation and I've bled the clutch but when I push the pedal to disengage the pedal stops about 2" from the floor board.

More info: Smitty 5-Speed conversion. Clutch has about 500 miles on it before I took it off the road to restore the car, frame-up, and I installed a new master and slave cylinder. The throwout bushing arm stops about 1/8" from hitting the bellhousing. I am using a 2 1/2" long "rod" for the slave to throwout bushing arm and I believe that is the correct length. I thought about making a shorter "rod" but looking for another cause of this problem first.

Both brake and clutch pedals are at the same resting height. I can not road test the car because it's on jack stands and there's no seats. The length of travel suggests that it might be enough to disengage the clutch.

Thanks,

 

[Keoke]

HI Patrick that sounds about right you do not want the pedal to go to the floor on clutch release. you can test it on the stands by watching the rear wheel motion as you press and release the clutch.-

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

HI Patrick that sounds about right you do not want the pedal to go to the floor on clutch release. you can test it on the stands by watching the rear wheel motion as you press and release the clutch.-

I think you might be right, but 2" from the floor?? That's a lot to me but then again I pulled my Healey off the road in April 2007 with a bad engine and then started on a full restoration including a new frame, etc. and it's been 6 1/2 years and I haven't been in the drivers seat of a Healey since then so I might be having trouble finding the brain cell where the info was stored. I'll test it tomorrow. Thanks!

 

[Bob Claffie]

I suggest if there is no physical obstruction on the pedal mechanism you should have another pair of eyes watching the movement of the slave rod. If the slave rod is reaching it's maximum throw there can be no further movement at the pedal. Could the slave be positioned incorrectly ? Is the mounting surface "fool-proof". Another possibility is some incorrect assembly such as the clutch disc in backwards, wrong throwout bearing, etc. Bob

 

[mikephillips]

Grab a friend or spouse, put the car in gear and chock or otherwise set one rear wheel so it won't move. Grab the other wheel and try to turn it, it shouldn't. Then have your help depress the clutch pedal, the wheel should now turn when you manually try to rotate it. Which would show that it is disengaging properly.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

I suggest if there is no physical obstruction on the pedal mechanism you should have another pair of eyes watching the movement of the slave rod. If the slave rod is reaching it's maximum throw there can be no further movement at the pedal. Could the slave be positioned incorrectly ? Is the mounting surface "fool-proof". Another possibility is some incorrect assembly such as the clutch disc in backwards, wrong throwout bearing, etc. Bob

UPDATE: The bellhousing is a new one from Pete Delaney for my Toyota trans and it has a correct pivot part for the throw-out arm to pivot on. The bellhousing I had originally did not have the correct pivot part(too short) and it caused the throw-out arm to dig in to the bellhousing, but it still worked okay but hard to push in the clutch to disengage it.

I just tried to disengage the clutch with the engine running(trans cover off) and as soon as I tried to pull the gear lever to put it in gear the driveshaft started turning and I could not apparently completely disengage the the clutch. I did not force the gearshift lever into gear. I had no helper doing this. I believe I may need to bleed the clutch again and see what happens and look for something else too. The new bellhousing clutch slave cylinder mount is fool proof(I know...we've heard that one before).

Anyway, my rear carb float also sunk while doing this test dumping a considrable amount gas on my garage floor. I've been running the engine daily to break it in...carbs professionately rebuilt so it's a parts issue. I had to stop, grab my garden hose and wash out my garage and then set out a fan to blow out the fumes. Just another usual Healey day. If you rebuild something that was working just fine before you took the car apart so as to have a newly rebuilt part/system when it goes back together, it surely will come back to bite you!

 

[HealeyRick]

Was the Smitty conversion installed previously before the clutch master and slave were installed or is this a new conversion?

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Was the Smitty conversion installed previously before the clutch master and slave were installed or is this a new conversion?

I'm doing a frame-up complete restoration of my car and I decided to do a new Master and Slave because the old ones showed some fluid and crud when I removed the rubber dast caps.

 

[HealeyRick]

I'm doing a frame-up complete restoration of my car and I decided to do a new Master and Slave because the old ones showed some fluid and crud when I removed the rubber dast caps.

So was everything fine with the clutch and tranny before you changed the master and slave and when you changed them the distance the clutch pedal travelled to the floor changed?

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Was the Smitty conversion installed previously before the clutch master and slave were installed or is this a new conversion?

Here's a few photos of the original installation done in 2007 and a few of the New installation(New bellhousing). Note how the Throwout arm has been digging into the old bellhousing. Note the test fit photo(I found this on the web), that shows the throwout arm "at rest" away from the bellhousing by a significant amount as shown by the shorter length of slave cylinder rod showing out of the slave cylinder and the distance of the space between the bellhousing and the throw-out arm. For discussion purposes lets call the pivot part the Fulcrum since that more accurately defines what it is and does.

Brain thinking: If I'm hitting a stopping point of the clutch pedal travel that appears to hit something hard then it might just be I was sent the wrong length of Fulcrum bolt...again! When I bled the clutch the pedal would go all the way to the floor and that makes sense on a clutch bleeding and because it does so it means theres nothing blocking or interferring with the clutch pedal travel. It looks like I might have to pull the trans again and check the Fulcrum bolt length?! I could make a longer clutch slave rod but that would allow me to disengage the clutch and also use the bellhousing casting as an additional Fulrum point and that's not what I want to do(been there...done that before). Whe I push the clutch slave rod into the slave cylinder there's a considerable amount of play with the throwout arm and that seems to furthure back up my troubleshooting but again, I'm still not 100% positive about this. The "play" would be the area between the fulcrum bolt and the pressure plate surface. A longer fulcrum bolt equals less play and the furthure distance the throwout arm is away from the bellhousing when the clutch pedal is pushed in?

 

[steveg]

Your last picture shows the T/O lever at rest halfway back in the opening. This could be causing the pedal to only go half way.

IMHO the length of the fulcrum bolt and slave pushrod need to be adjusted so the lever at rest is at the front of the opening. That way you'll have the entire travel of the slave cylinder at your disposal. See attached.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

So was everything fine with the clutch and tranny before you changed the master and slave and when you changed them the distance the clutch pedal travelled to the floor changed?

No, nothing was fine and I just wanted to make the one trip to south Texas for the Healey Roundup and then get back and take care of the clutch problem and bad transmission. The #6 piston "broke" as soon as I hit the city limits of the return trip home(lucky or what?).

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Was the Smitty conversion installed previously before the clutch master and slave were installed or is this a new conversion?

Yes, the Smitty conversion was previously done back in 2007 but not without problems(read my whole post for the details. It did not work correctly before and I have the same problem with the clutch not completely disengaging. Before, I made a longer clutch slave rod and this allowed the throwout arm to do it's job but not without the throwout arm digging into the bellhousing and a hard pedal.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Your last picture shows the T/O lever at rest halfway back in the opening. This could be causing the pedal to only go half way.

IMHO the length of the fulcrum bolt and slave pushrod need to be adjusted so the lever at rest is at the front of the opening. That way you'll have the entire travel of the slave cylinder at your disposal. See attached.
View attachment 29198

Great drawing and I totally agree with you on all points. The trans needs to come back out and then separated from the bellhousing and then bolt the bellhouing back on to the rear engine plate after making a new longer fulcrum pivot bolt. Adjusting the clutch slave rod is then pretty easy. I am planning to start pulling the trans this Thursday and I will post photos on the solution when it's all back together. Thanks for posting the drawing!!

 

[steveg]

Great drawing and I totally agree with you on all points. The trans needs to come back out and then separated from the bellhousing and then bolt the bellhouing back on to the rear engine plate after making a new longer fulcrum pivot bolt. Adjusting the clutch slave rod is then pretty easy. I am planning to start pulling the trans this Thursday and I will post photos on the solution when it's all back together. Thanks for posting the drawing!!

I made an adjustable slave pushrod out of a piece of 3/16" ID tubing and a piece of 10-24 all thread with a couple of locknuts. Once this was properly adjusted I made a permanent rod to that length. Might have been able to cut the Smitty rod. Maybe it was a 20d nail. Dunno.

(Thanks for the kudos on the dwg!

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

Great drawing and I totally agree with you on all points. The trans needs to come back out and then separated from the bellhousing and then bolt the bellhouing back on to the rear engine plate after making a new longer fulcrum pivot bolt. Adjusting the clutch slave rod is then pretty easy. I am planning to start pulling the trans this Thursday and I will post photos on the solution when it's all back together. Thanks for posting the drawing!!

I just talked to Pete Delaney and he said that the fulcrum bolt he uses should not be a problem and he suggested that I check the clutch disc to see that it is installed the right way and not turned around which clould result in the pedal stopping before it hits the floorboard. He has heard of guys increasing the Fulcrum bolt length but said that might have been a long time ago. He has 5 cars in his shop right now and all are working correctly with the fulcrum bolt he sells with the bellhousing kits. My wife was able to slide a large straight slot screwdriver end in the space between the bellhousing and the throwout bushing arm with the pedal pushed as far as it could go and she showed me where she marked the screwdriver and it looked like the throwout arm could go another 1/8". So, when the trans comes out I'll check the clutch disc first for proper installation. If it's installed wrong it will be my first mistake this year unless I can find somebody else to blame?(LOL).

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

I just talked to Pete Delaney and he said that the fulcrum bolt he uses should not be a problem and he suggested that I check the clutch disc to see that it is installed the right way and not turned around which clould result in the pedal stopping before it hits the floorboard. He has heard of guys increasing the Fulcrum bolt length but said that might have been a long time ago. He has 5 cars in his shop right now and all are working correctly with the fulcrum bolt he sells with the bellhousing kits. My wife was able to slide a large straight slot screwdriver end in the space between the bellhousing and the throwout bushing arm with the pedal pushed as far as it could go and she showed me where she marked the screwdriver and it looked like the throwout arm could go another 1/8". So, when the trans comes out I'll check the clutch disc first for proper installation. If it's installed wrong it will be my first mistake this year unless I can find somebody else to blame?(LOL).

We pulled the trans this morning and we found the pilot bearing in pieces. It came apart and at this time we don't know why. What's left is still in the flywheel. I hand-fitted it in place instead of using a press so when the new pilot bearing comes in I'm using a press to install it per Pete's recommendation.

The one photo shows the clutch slave at "rest" before the disassembly began. We took measurements for our records. It was clear that there was something amiss when we began dissasembly because the clutch disc "fingers" were already depressed. The clutch disc was installed correctly and not in backwards as originally thought to be the problem.

New parts on order.

 

[Patrick67BJ8]

We pulled the trans this morning and we found the pilot bearing in pieces. It came apart and at this time we don't know why. What's left is still in the flywheel. I hand-fitted it in place instead of using a press so when the new pilot bearing comes in I'm using a press to install it per Pete's recommendation.

The one photo shows the clutch slave at "rest" before the disassembly began. We took measurements for our records. It was clear that there was something amiss when we began dissasembly because the clutch disc "fingers" were already depressed. The clutch disc was installed correctly and not in backwards as originally thought to be the problem.

New parts on order.

We finally got the transmission clutch to disengage.

We pulled the Trans and found the pilot bearing in pieces so we knew that had to be changed and just maybe the pieces got between the clutch disc and the flywheel but we were not sure that actually happened. With the new pilot bushing and bearing we installed the trans. The clutch pedal still stopped about 2 inches from the floor. We checked to see if the clutch was disengaging and it wasn't. So what was causing the clutch pedal travel problem?? After scratching heads and exchanging scenarios and what if's we determined it was being stopped by the spring clip that keeps the piston from popping out of the slave cylinder! I installed a 3 1/4" slave pushrod and the throw-out arm was also very close to hitting the bellhousing with the clutch pedal pushed in so we tackled the fulcrum pin because we figured the throw-out arm wasn't traveling far enough and the 3 1/4" pushrod for the slave cylinder was too long.

I remember reading an article about the early Bellhousings having problems disengaging because of the fulcrum pin wasn't long enough and it was cured by increasing the length of the fulcrum pin which pushed the throw-out arm back towards the clutch slave cylinder. We installed a 1/8 washer on the fulcrum to increase it's length and then reinstalled the Trans. Walla...it disengages now!

We also measured the distance between the flat surafce of the Bellhousing to the surface inside the Bellhousing where the fulcrum pin bolts to and it was between 5 7/8" and 6". So, I'm not saying the brand new Bellhousing was at fault, but it would be good to check this measurement when installing a Toyota 5-speed Trans.

The interior is due in soon so I can't test drive the car until I have a seat but the clutch does disengage with the car on jack stands.


At this point we pulled the Trans again

 

[steveg]

I had put washers under the stock fulcrum bolt but it wasn't enough to get the TO lever all the way forward. This is the one am currently using:

 

[rjc157]

did you make that or is that the one from pete