Careful with Heat + Argon + Break Cleaner

[Stewart]

https://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

 

[Gray_Cat]

Thank you for posting the article Stewart. I will be much more careful now when I use my MIG welder after cleaning the area to be welded. I was completely unaware of the potential consequences of not carefully clearing the surface of any residue left behind by whatever I use to clean the metal.
Roy

 

[AweMan]

Exactly why I try to avoid using chemical cleaners before welding, {notice I said TRY}. IF and when I use chemicals to clean a surface i`m going to be welding on I only use alcohol or better yet soap and water! After application I use compressed air to thoroughly dry the area to ensure there is no liquefied substance left in the pits, cracks or voids.

Remember you <span style="font-weight: bold">MUST ALWAYS</span> remove the alcohol container from the area before you attempt to use any type of device that is capable of flames or sparks!

During my welding tenure I have ran into situations where very nasty fumes were generated by the welding process. As a result of these fumes I too have chronic emphysema and C.O.P.D.

It is imperative that when attempting ANY welding process one must take all precautions to ensure adequate ventilation.

I <span style="font-weight: bold">DO NOT</span> recommend the use of Keytone, acetone, Methylene chloride, triethylene chloride Or any other petroleum based products be use for cleaning purposes on weld projects.
Sand blast, Wire brush, sand, grind and/or soap and water to clean weld areas for your health sake is a MUST DO! Alcohol is a last resort! if the object won`t come clean enough to weld with those methods I recommend .... <span style="font-weight: bold">Don`t weld it</span>!

 

[JamesWilson]

What I find incredible about the story is this guy did it to himself, then researched what he'd done, learned he'd exposed himslef to PHOSGENE gas as used in chemical warfare, and then just sat around hoping things would get better, rather than go immediately to the hospital for treatment.

Messing up is one thing, knowing you tried to kill yourself and then sitting back and hoping for the best... surely there should be a Darwin award for waiting and hoping....

 

[DaveatMoon]

About 15 years ago there was an article in the (TR6) Six Pack magazine about using a type of Eagle One Wheel Cleaner to remove stubborn carbon and sludge deposits when prepping small engine components. I grabbed a bottle off the shelf at the local K-Mart and discovered that one of the main active ingredients was hydrofluoric acid (HF).

HF is not just a very strong acid, it is a serious nerve toxin that's absorbed through the skin. Using this material outside to wash and rinse off a wheel (as per the instructions) would not be a problem, but scrubbing small parts in this solution in a closed garage would likely cause a serious exposure. People could have lost serious feeling and function if they incautiously followed the advice in the article. I notified the editor immediately, and a headline article was run in the next issue warning about the problem. It took almost 3 months for that information to get out, however.

The internet is a mixed blessing when it comes to information like this. This is one of its best uses.

 

[aeronca65t]

I have also read that one must be careful that R12 "freon" does not accidentally create Phosgene gas.

Apparently, if R12 is sucked down the intake of a running engine, it will create this toxic gas at the tailpipe.

It's sort of an unlikely thing to happen, but not impossible when working around cars.

 

[texas_bugeye]

2 welders went out to t a site to weld a fitting in a tank it was empty but had a petroleum based product so they stuck a tank of nitrogen in the tank opened the valve went to lunch to let the inert gas clear out the tank.
They came back went in the tank to welded up the fitting. They found them both dead the next day. Sure it cleared any explosive gases but it also cleared all the oxygen from the atmosphere.

Messing with solvents and gasses is not for the untrained there are so many chemicals that we are exposed to in our every day lives. all it takes is a cocktail of the rite stuff and its lights out.
I'm a be fan of open garage doors

 

[AweMan]

An open garage door is better than nothing but when it comes right down to it, it just isn`t adequate. Even a fan in close proximity to the weld area either blowing or sucking the fumes away from you {I prefer sucking the fumes away with a fan} Really isn`t ideal either because although the fumes are dissipated there are still some residual fumes lingering in an enclosed garage even though you may have the 'door opened'.
Ideally, a fume evacuation unit is the answer Although I do realize that most of us are not in a financial position to acquire such equipment.
But a large shop vac could be LBC enthusiast engineered to do an adequate job of fume evacuation. One would have to vent the shop vac exhaust to the outside of the garage/building. Easily done with Hose that can be purchased at your local hardware store. The next problem will be the fume pickup. A hood of some sort to place over the area to be welded in close proximity to the weld itself and some sort of apparatus to hold it in place while you are welding. Large enough to catch and direct the fumes inside of the vacuum yet small enough to see around and handle with relative ease.
I do realize that not everyone does enough welding to justify dedicating a shop vac to the task of merely catching fumes except for one factor ..... ONE awaking morning with lung disease and you will know what that factor is!
What ever it takes ..... Protect your eyes, ears and lungs Not to mention your heart eyes, ears and lungs CAN NOT be replaced EVER!

 

[DaveatMoon]

2 welders went out to t a site to weld a fitting in a tank it was empty but had a petroleum based product so they stuck a tank of nitrogen in the tank opened the valve went to lunch to let the inert gas clear out the tank.
They came back went in the tank to welded up the fitting. They found them both dead the next day. Sure it cleared any explosive gases but it also cleared all the oxygen from the atmosphere.

A similar thing happened to 2 workers working on the space shuttle's fuel tanks back in the 1980s. The problem is that if you were to be breathing 100% nitrogen you'd never know it. The body's suffocation mechanism, where you begin to notice shortness of breath and struggle for air, is keyed to the presence of CO2, NOT a lack of oxygen. Breathing in a 100% nitrogen atmosphere allows CO2 to be relased as normal, it's just not replaced with any O2. In both cases the workers probably went about their business without noticing anything wrong, and suddenly passed out. They were unconsious before they knew they were in trouble.

I worry about this now that a lot of tire shops have nitrogen tanks for inflating tires. If one of these were to develop a leak overnight when the shop is closed/unventilated, it could kill whoever walked into the room where the tank was located.

 

[DaveatMoon]

What I find incredible about the story is this guy did it to himself, then researched what he'd done, learned he'd exposed himslef to PHOSGENE gas as used in chemical warfare, and then just sat around hoping things would get better, rather than go immediately to the hospital for treatment.

Messing up is one thing, knowing you tried to kill yourself and then sitting back and hoping for the best... surely there should be a Darwin award for waiting and hoping....

You're assuming he could pay the doctor bills. For a lot of people <span style="text-decoration: underline">who HAVE insurance</span> just walking into the hospital is a $1000.00 decision right there. I know on my plan it only goes up from there. My wife was hospitalized twice 3 years ago for a few days (once for observation due to pneumonia (<span style="font-style: italic">where not so much as an IV was given to her</span>), and then for a related intestinal ulcer the next month (<span style="font-style: italic">that required surgery but was the cheaper of the 2 bills</span>).

I had to refinance the house.

God knows if this guy even has "insurance".

You simply can't presume that people have real access to health care these days.

 

[JamesWilson]

You're assuming he could pay the doctor bills. For a lot of people <span style="text-decoration: underline">who HAVE insurance</span> just walking into the hospital is a $1000.00 decision right there.

You simply can't presume that people have real access to health care these days.

A rather timely observation, given current Congressional activities and controversies....

These aren't issues that would be a problem here- though that's no incentive for such carelessness.

I can assure you that I'd go as quickly as possible to my local hospital and I'd be seen PDQ and I'd get whatever treatment was considered appropriate... and maybe have to cough up £5 or so for a prescription, or two.

I've not got (nor does he, from the sound of it) the medical background to know whether quicker treatment might have reduced the effects on his health but this seems close to a life and death/serious consequences situation even from a cursory reading about the stuff....

I hope this hasn't veered too far into controversial political territory....

 

[terriphill]

These aren't issues that would be a problem here- though that's no incentive for such carelessness.

I can assure you that I'd go as quickly as possible to my local hospital and I'd be seen PDQ and I'd get whatever treatment was considered appropriate... and maybe have to cough up £5 or so for a prescription, or two.

I can't help but wonder if quicker response to a possible poisoning would not have reduced the "amount" of health care required for treatment. He was admitted to ICU (not cheap) where I wonder if it would have been less if he had sought treatment early on before his kidneys shut down.

I agree...the decision to seek medical attention can be terrifying even if you have insurance but are just making your monthly bills. We wiped out our saving when David got ill several years and was hospitalized for over two weeks. <span style="font-weight: bold">AND WE HAD "GOOD" Insurance.
</span>
In the end, your life and your "quality of life" or $$$? What a choice to have to make.

 

[rlwhitetr3b]

Don't comment!
Don't comment!!

Boss, I think I'm over it! :banana:

 

[DaveatMoon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]In the end, your life and your "quality of life" or $$$? What a choice to have to make.[/QUOTE]
Not that I'm defending this guy's decision to treat himself, but his knowledge of what happened to him included exposure to something that "had no antidote". He says he started to feel better, and had only intermittent symptoms for the first day or so.

Also I noted that when he finally (4 days later) did seek medical help it was directly at the emergency room. This is usually a sign of someone who has no insurance. Even if not it's a very rare insurance plan these days that has a flat co-pay for hospitalizations, and once you're paying a percentage of a number you have no way of checking this is really just a purchased service like any other anyway.

Obviously it was a terrible mistake to delay treatment for something so serious. The delay could have killed him as much as the exposure could have. However these days overcoming the resistance to almost certain personal bankruptcy often results in actions like these, even among the "insured".

I'm upset and ashamed to say I likely would have done the same thing, based on what I know this would cost me. (<span style="font-style: italic">I'd almost certainly never own a home or a British car again, just for starters.</span>) :frown:

Hopefully the author of this article won't wind-up ruining his financial life as much as his health. I wish him well.