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Brake pipes; steel or SS

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RestoreThemAll

Jedi Warrior
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I'm ready to work on the fuel and brake pipes on my BJ7. I see that Spares in the UK has copper pipes, not original are they? Is copper even OK to use in the U.S.? Vicky Brit has DIY steel pipes. I'm not excited about DIY. Moss has a full prebent steel kit, though I'm unsure of the quality. Anyone used the Moss pipes? I've been thinking of using stainless steel. I know, not original. I just hate to see the rust at the clip points after a coule of years. Anyone care to offer an opinion?

Classic Tube near Buffalo NY offers prebent ss but they don't have drawings for my '63 BJ7. They can make up pipes using the old ones but mine aren't in very good condition. Does anyone have, or can point me to blue prints or drawing of the pipes that could be used to make the pipes?

Do people use ss or just stick with the steel?

Dale
 
Hi Dale,

I bought mine from Doug Reid (Mr. Finespanner) Mr. Finespanner brake line info and they fit very well. They did require a little messaging to have them match my original pipes but not too much. His brake lines are zinc plated steel as original. I didn't have any rust on my 40+ year old pipes so didn't worry about rust in the future but I live in Southern California.

The 'copper pipes' are a copper alloy .. the exact name escapes me .. but are legal and should last forever as they have great corrosion resistance. I understand they are relatively soft so you can bend them to fit but the color looks 'less than original'.

I don't know anything about SS lines but I'm sure we'll get some opinions.

Cheers,
John
 
Hi Dale, The right rear short line from the union to the brake cylinder on my BJ7 is copper. I must say that this is the first copper line that i have experience with because I don't think they are legal in Pa. My inspection mechanic hasn't caught it in about 5 yrs now. OOPs, did I say that.:smile: But I needed a brake line just a little while back and ordered one, it is for the other side, which is longer, anyway, I recieved a copper one that i didn't realize I was getting. I didn't use it because it feels so soft. Maybe it is just my mental block because we don't find copper in Pa. I think the original steel replacement lines are the best because they generally last about 40 years anyway. Also, they are strong enough to not get abrasion or impact damage from debre off the road. Here is another aspect to mull over, On the Corvette it is common to replace disc brake calipers with stainless steel sleeved calipers. I have had them on my Vette for about 20 years now. They do solve an enheirant problem with the vette brakes. But, the concept of SS is over applied in the Market Place because everybody is given the impression that SS is the absolute toughest, longest lasting material to use. So, the aftermarket has also developed SS bleeder valves for the vette calipers. I have found from experience that they don't work so well and can potentially damage an otherwise good caliper. What happens is that the stainless steel bleeder valve is so hard that is has no 'crush' characteristic when turned down into the bleeder seat. I have found that they tend to weep. Causing the brake system to gradually get air. Then when you try to make them tighter and turn them down into the seat, you score the seat because the bleeder nipple is tougher than the seat. Eventually you have scored the seat so bad that it will never seal. So you have to be careful why and where you use stainless steel. Another example of using a non-standard alloy, was when I had all my hydralic cylinders sleeved with brass. the likes of master, slave, caliper, wheel cylinders, etc. I had one master cylinder that just would not bleed up. Took it off (3) times, sent it back to the remanufacter each time, got it back, reinstalled it, and no bleed. I finally called another supplier of another standard remanufactured master cylinder, And in discussion mentioned the trouble I was having with the brass sleeved one, He said, why go thru that, the factory type units will probably out live me.
 
Perhaps the confusion lies here:

Several materials have been / are being used for brake piping.
First & worst is regular copper. Copper work hardens with vibration & flexing & fatigue cracks. Not good for brake or fuel lines. It has not been used in the USA for many years.

Low carbon annealed steel has been used for many years. It is not subject to fatigue failure but has rust & corrosion problems.

Various coatings have been used to protect the steel, such as, copper & tin plating. A typical brand is "Bundy".

A 90% copper - 10% nickel alloy (UNS C70600) has been used in Europe for many years. It has the fatigue resistant qualities of steel & very high corrosion resistance. I don't know whether present US car manufacturers & racing organizations are sanctioning It's use or not.

The confusion may be between copper, copper plated steel, & 90/10 copper - nickel. The all appear to be somewhat copper color & all contain copper.

Quote:
"For many years the tubing in automotive brake systems has been manufactured from low-carbon steel. One or more superficial coatings are applied after brazing to protect the steel substrate from corrosion, because steel has no inherent corrosion resistance to the road environment. Although coating composition has changed since the original hot-dip lead-tin coatings were used, coating flaws remain a problem. The addition of zinc-rich paints did little to improve the protection of the tube. Current aluminum-zinc coatings and added polyvinylfloride coatings are still inadequate to totally protect the steel tube.

In a recent series of tests, 90-10 copper-nickel tube (UNS C70600) was fabricated into typical brake system '.shapes" which were then attached to a test trailer and conveyed through various corrosive and mechanically abusive test track environments. The tests included holding the tubes in a high humidity chamber for a portion of each 24-hour test cycle. After 40 cycles and at each 10 cycles thereafter, the individual tubes were required to pass a 20,684 kPa (3,000 psi) pressure test. Candidate tube materials had to complete 60 cycles to satisfy the minimum requirement.

Current production steel tubes passed the 60-cycle requirement but failed well before 120 cycles. The 90-10 copper-nickel tubes completed 200 cycles with essentially no reduction of their original burst strength."
D
 
I went with Classic Tube stainless steel pipes.

They came largely prebent, requiring only some tweaking.

They replaced a set of copper-alloy pipes that I was never really happy with, mostly because they were so soft and easily damaged (dented SUPER easy).

Now I see that ss flexible lines are available; maybe I'll get those fitted over the winter...?

See: https://www.rfdm.com/gallery/album51

IMG_6485.sized.jpg
 
John, I sent an email to Mr. FS. My only concern is that his prices look a little steep for steel, 275. Classic Tube gets 199 but they don't have blue prints for the BJ7.

Vette, Now that you mention it I have heard about problems with SS hardness. The copper is probably great to work with because it's softer. Then it could be damaged easier than steel.

Dave, Thanks for the lesson! I now know more than ever about brake line metals and coatings.

Randy, that ss looks great! Guess they had blue prints for your car.

I was thinking that I needed ss, as I live in upstate NY. Anyone watching the NY weather reports. I think that we were in the 60's this time last year. We had neg. wind chill last night. Plenty of snow and tons of salt on the road. That said I will never drive this car in bad weather, and it's garaged when not in use. Steel will probably work just fine. I'll consider spraying some good quality clear paint just for extra measure.

Thanks all for the input!
Dale
 
Dale,

I think his prices did go up since I ordered mine.

If you are really set on SS lines, I could let you borrow my original set which are in great condition but shipping them back and forth across the country is going to eat into your budget. Do you have a Healey club or restoration shop close to you? Healey people are pack rats so there's a good chance that someone has a set.

Another option if you are tool handy is to buy lengths of bundy tubing, buy a good quality bender and flare tool and make up your own set using yours as patterns. If you search the forums (I think MG and/or Triumph) there are some threads with tips on making your own.

BTW, I did paint mine with a spray can of clear brake caliper paint.

Cheers,
John
 
When I ordered my set from Classic Tube, I ordered a them for an early 3000 (because of the disc brakes) without the vacuum servo.

The only pipe they didn't (originally) supply was the one (1) from the reservoir to the clutch MC. CC requested mine for a pattern, and they sent me the new pipe at no additional charge (also returned the original).
 
John, Thanks for the offer of your pipes. You're right shipping would ruin the plan. You're a cool guy John, offering a stranger your stuff!

I'll look into the DIY. Pre bent would be easier as the bends would be more correct. If the car is ever judged would I lose points for incorrect bends? I guess that depends on just how good (bad) I am at bending and following the pattern.

Randy's ss sure looks nice, and there is something to be said for doing a job just once. On the other hand if the steel lasts 40 years then I'll be 90 years old when it goes bad. It'll be my son's problem.
 
RestoreThemAll said:
John, Thanks for the offer of your pipes. You're right shipping would ruin the plan. You're a cool guy John, offering a stranger your stuff!

I'll look into the DIY. Pre bent would be easier as the bends would be more correct. If the car is ever judged would I lose points for incorrect bends? I guess that depends on just how good (bad) I am at bending and following the pattern.

Randy's ss sure looks nice, and there is something to be said for doing a job just once. On the other hand if the steel lasts 40 years then I'll be 90 years old when it goes bad. It'll be my son's problem.
Click to expand...
You have to understand, as an Instrumentation Technician, I believe that everything should be made with stainless steel /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
 
OK, so Classic Tube has blue prints for a BT7. I have an AH restoration guide that says that there is very little difference between a BT7 and a BJ7. Does anyone know if the brake and fuel lines changed at all?
 
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