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BRAKE/CLUTCH FLUID

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H

habaneronut

Senior Member
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Checked the brake/clutch fluid reservoir on my new LBC for the first time today, and desperatly needs to be filled. The manual says to use Castrol Girling, and I see in the Moss catalog that that is one of the ones they sell, so went looking in my local stores to no avail. Are there viable replacements for the Castrol available like at Auto Zone etc, or do I need to get on-line and order the good stuff and miss out on a week's worth of precious sunshine before the UPS man brings it to me?

Fred, 58 TR3A
 
Fred-

Others may wade in, but I always used Castrol GT LMA just to be safe. I've read about other successes and failures, one noted failure on the team.net list was the used of Wagner Dot 4 fluid.

I bet you can use other types, but get a direct recommendation first to be safe.

Randy

p.s. How's Bville? Lived there for a little over a year before getting pulled down to Houston. You weren't the guy redoing a 3 at the airport were you?
 
Yeah, that's what I figured, too. The GT LMA is what Moss has, so I probably just need to bite the bullet and order some and wait for it to get here. I'm so low I don't want to drive it before I top it off.

Wasn't me at the airport - I'm too old to start on a restoration, so bought mine already done. That's been interesting, too, though, since I'm discovering more and more that it was pieced together and it's taking me a while to figure out what's what (like a TR4 engine, HS6 carbs and who knows what all else that was originally with the 4 that the engine came from).

Thanks for the advice.

Fred
 
I can get Castrol GT LMA at Pep Boys out here. If you don't have Pep Boys, you can call around to all the big and small auto parts stores in your area to see anyone carries it.

Low brake/clutch fluid is a sign that the fluid is going somewhere .. it doesn't evaporate. I would visually inspect the entire brake system to look for leaks. Another possiblity is losing brake fluid through the power brake booster.

Cheers,
John
 
Pep Boys is good, there's one of them about 50 miles from here. But you are reinforcing what I've been thinking, too, John - where did that fluid go? I've only driven the car about 300 miles since I bought it, the brakes were real good until just the last 50 miles or so and started deteriating fast. First place to check - brake fluid, right? Man, the cap on that thing hadn't been off in 50 years - was quite a struggle to get it to break loose, and then once open, the reservoir is practically dry.

I've had some unidentified leaks since day one, and the brakes have always squacked pretty badly from time to time, so maybe nows the time to do some pretty extensive checking/work before I try to refill and drive this thing again.

Would appreciate any advice anybody wants to jump in with as to where to start.

Fred
 
DOT 3 brake fluid is basically all the same...buy any brand and you will be OK.

I've been doing brake work for over 40 years and have never had a problem with any brand of fluid.

Now, if you were racing there might be a different answer...
 
Hi Fred,

100 mile round trip ... wheww .. call first to make sure they carry it!

For the fluid check I would do the easiest part first. Do you have a brake booster and getting clouds of white smoke coming out the exhaust when you floor it? If no, then look around the master cylinders/reservoirs/brake line fittings in the engine compartment. Put your hand under all these parts to see if there is any brake fluids dripping under them. Look inside the drivers footwell compartment where the master cylinder is mounted. Leaking master cylinders can leak brake fluid down the inside wall. Next look under the car near the inside of each wheel. Visually inspect the brake hoses, especially the rubber ones near the wheels. Flex them a bit and see if they have any cracks or look swollen in any areas. Look for any brake fluid on the inboard side of the wheels. Then take off the wheels. Brakes usually leak at the wheel cylinders because of the seals. If the car does not get driven much, corrosion can form on the inside of the bores. Then when the seals go over the rough areas the leaks start. So pull the wheels and look for any wetness around the wheel cylinders and brake calipers. Also look around the clutch slave cylinder and any rubber hoses that go to it.

Oh .. what color is brake fluid currently in the system? If it has a purple cast it is Silicone fluid and you wouldn't want to put the Castrol in there.
 
LMA is becoming more difficult to find. In the DFW area, for instance, I'd recommend Motorcycle shops, Triumph "friendly" shops, or local racers.
Take care Bob
 
Sounds like I have my work cut out for me yet again. These LBC's do find many ways to keep us occupied, don't they.

Thanks all, and especially you, ObiWan

Fred
 
Fred,

Just below the reservoir you couldn't get the lid off of is the brake and clutch master cylinders. There's no power boost. Top off the reservoir and pump the brakes for a while and as John said see if you have any leaks around the master brake and clutch cylinders, clutch slave, front calipers, or rear wheel cylinders. The clutch master line travels straight down the driver side engine firewall and connects to the clutch slave cylinder. The brake master cylinder line goes across the engine firewall above the battery and down to a coupling mounted on the frame behind the passenger side tire. The line splits at the coupling to both front calipers and one line travels to a rear coupling which splits the line to each of the rear wheel cylinders. You will need to take all the tires off to see if anything's leaking out the front disk calipers. You will also need to take the rear brake drums off to see if the rear brake cylinders are leaking. Unlike most cars there are 2 countersunk screws holding each of the rear drums on and if rusted are hard to see. You need to remove the screws first before the drums can be removed. Once the drums are off <span style="color: #FF0000">Do Not</span> depress the brake pedal with the rear brake drums off! This will force the cylinder pistons out of the cylinder and create a big mess. If the rear cylinders are leaking the rear brake shoes will be covered in fluid and will have to be thoroughly cleaned and dried before being reinstalled. If there are no leaks now is the time to flush and refill the system with fresh Dot 3 brake fluid. As mentioned check the color of the fluid. If it is purple the PO changed over to Dot 5 silicone and that's what needs to go back in. If not purple then flush the system (gravity drain and push the old out with new) and install the Dot 3, Girling, or the Genuine Lockheed if thats what you have or want. Do not mix any of the dots 3-4-5 together or you may wind up with swollen rubber seals or o-rings that will leak. If the cover was frozen and the fluid low it's probably time to flush the system anyway.
 
Harry,

Thanks for filling in the details that pertain to a TR3. I was trying to be general since I don't know squat about Triumphs (but that was obvious, wasn't it!) /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif I better scoot back to the Healey forum before they notice me missing.

Cheers,
John
 
Even a clutz like me can follow instructions like that, Harry. Just one stupid question, though, and all you old timers can go ahead and laugh at me, you say to take all the tires off to see if anything is leaking from the front disc calipers. All at once, or one at a time?

Thanks a bunch, everyone. The BCF is truly a great place to be. Thanks Basil!!
 
You can inspect one at a time, or take off all 4 wheels, by using 4 jack stands, of course. When I got my 3, it was pretty obvious that both rear seals were leaking; the rubber on both sides of the wheel cylinders was puffy, and obviously weeping.

I rebuilt all four corners... I replaced the pistons in the front w/ stainless steel, and wound up farming that out; just couldn't figure out the rubber seals there. I also replaced all three brake hoses. If/when you bleed the brakes, you want to start at the furthest wheel, which on the 3 is the driver's side rear wheel.

If you replace the rear brake shoes, make sure you get the right size. Triumph went back from 10 inch to 9 inch at TS 56377... the 10-inchers are horribly expensive, but you might be able to get them rebuilt!

Have fun!
 
Just a couple of thoughts here. In all honesty, it seems to me that struggling just to get the cap off the reservoir is a very bad sign...a sign that a previous owner has not paid a lot of attention to the brake system over the years. At a minimum, I would do (or have done for you) a very thorough inspection of every single component of the system from that cap all the way to the four "corners" of the car.

Obvious leaks are a sure sign of problems, but then so are dry or brittle-looking hoses or corroded pipes...and anything else that doesn't look clean or move freely or however it's supposed to move. Here I'm thinking any and all handbrake-related components, which I suspect you're going to have to rely on fairly soon if you don't get around to thoroughly checking the hydraulics!

The price of this inspection is fairly low, and it's not horribly expensive to just go ahead and renew or rebuild any component that seems questionable. TR3 brakes are actually quite good when in top condition, and the same goes for the handbrake. But with only a single circuit, a problem at any point in the hydraulic system will quickly leave you with no way to stop the car via the brake pedal, at which time you'll be very glad you at least made sure the handbrake was working.

I don't wish to start the age-old debate up again, but I'm not a fan of the silicone brake fluids. Castrol GT/LMA is about as good as it gets, but any name-brand glycol-based fluid should be fine. I also prefer NOT to mix brands, but I've seen countless numbers of owners do so over the years with no ill effects.
 
tdskip said:
Are you going to bring the Healey to the Irvine show next Saturday?
Click to expand...

I wish. Unfortunately the motor rebuild has not gone smoothly and taking several steps back right now. grrr. Oh well, still have plenty to do on the interior.

Cheers,
John
 
Finally got the chance to start on Harry's check list today, and didn't get far before I noticed some obvious trouble. To start with, the clutch reservoir is completely empty of fluid, and the brake reservoir had only about half an inch. I haven't had any trouble at all from the clutch, and as I said, the brakes only started acting funny within about the last 50 miles or so. The car has 10,000 miles since restoration, and with the rusted on filler cap, I'm guessing the reservoir hasn't been open since then.

No sign of leakage around either master cylinder, nor the brake lines to the two front wheels. The clutch line is another story, however. Lots of fluid spray on the lower engine block above the front of the clutch slave cylinder, and an obvious puddle on the floor under the rear of the slave cylinder, so this may be the main (hopefully only) culprit. Are there any likely problems here before I get it up on blocks and dig into this? Seals likely to go, or maybe slave cylinder problems? Would I be wise to have some parts on hand or just wait and see what I find? Why didn't I get any indication from the clutch with a completely dry reservoir? Is there a connection between the brake and clutch reservoir at the bottom, or are they completely separate?

Incidentally, this is the separate brake and clutch cylinder installation, not the early combined type if that makes any difference.

Thanks again for all the help.

Fred
 
Fred,

I agree with Andrew as he made a great case for now's the time to have someone go through the whole system if nothings been done for as long as mentioned. Brakes are an important part of the coming home alive experience. It's also hard to see where your going while reaching over and pulling on the emergency handbrake every time you want to stop.

Before you climb under there and start tearing things apart make sure you wear some goggles to cover your eyes and put some rubber gloves on your hands. If you get the fluid on your hands you will need to be very conscious of what you touch. Nothing worse than getting brake fluid in your eyes and it will also eat the paint right of your car.

That said, the reservoir can does have a separate tube for just the clutch operating hydraulic system. The tube may have rust holes in it though if water got in there. I don't know where your brake fluid went it could have leaked as well or evaporated over time but it does sound as if the clutch side of the system has a leak.

I would wipe down the clutch steel line, flexible hose, all fittings, and the clutch slave itself to determine precisely where the leak is coming from. I wouldn't buy anything yet it may only be a loose fitting. If it's not the steel line, rubber line, or fittings You should be able to pull the clutch slave rubber dust boot forward onto the clutch slave push rod to gain a view of the front of the slave for possible leakage. The clutch line tubing, flexible hose, and seal kits for the slave and master cylinders are usually available from all the major suppliers. You should determine the exact cause before ordering the parts in this case because you may be ordering parts unnecessarily. For example, If it's the clutch slave leaking out the front after the boot is pushed back you will need to take it off and take it apart and inspect the bore for gouges or scratches prior to a possible seal kit installation. If the bore is gouged deeply you will need a brand new new slave. Big difference in price there. I'm getting to far ahead now and think you need to determine the exact cause before I go too much further. Besides it's dinner time.

According to your Commission number you should have the reservoir that looks like a small can with a screw on top. Below the reservoir you should have two master cylinders with push rods sticking out the front which are separate but identical in appearance and all should be Girling manufactured. Is that correct?
 
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