Another auction

[BOBBYR]

Hi Gang,
Even though I can't imagine selling my 3000, I like keeping up with the price an austin healey commands.Last week on ESPN there was a car auction on by a company I've never heard of and I didn't get the name.Anyway , they auctioned off a 100M that was in excellant shape.The car was bought for 150,000 dollars.
These prices really amaze me when you think of how many of these cars can be purchased for 20 to30 thousand and brought back to mint condition. You have to admit,rebuilding these cars sounds pretty inviting and the profit margin dosen't sound bad either.I know this sounds like another one of my crazy ideas but I would like to hear your thoughts on this.Are these cars so sought after , that a business like this could work?
As always , I appreciate your response.
Bobby R

 

[Dave Russell]

There were only about 640 true 100M's built by the factory. These are the cars that bring the big bucks. There are a number of obscure identifying points for a true 100M. Most important of all, the BMIHT certificate must identify the car as having a louvered bonnet & the cars individual numbers on some of the parts must match the certificate.

There are hundreds of other cars which have been converted to leMans specs but they are not considered to be part of the original 640 100M cars. Unwary buyers beware. Any reputable seller will tell you that it is a LeMans conversion & not a true 100M.

I suspect that your "business" would rapidly be discovered as bogus & boycutted.
D

 

[anthony7777]

dave, yes there are a bunch of 100m cars that are not true factory build, they have a dealer installed lemans kit containing a pair of hd6 carbs and associated manifold, high lift cam, cold air box, double valve springs, and a special distributer, a true factory "m" car came with this stuff and a high compression piston set as well. im learning about all this since the "pool healey" i found several years ago turned out to be a certifiable 100m factory built car, as per the heritage certificate and its original build sheet, all id. numbers match. only guestion is now what? do i rebuild it? sell it" keep it hanging around, im astounded at the prices these cars bring, and bobbyr, you just cant find one of these to rebuild and sell, of the 640 ever built only around 150 are known to exist, out of them how many do you think are true factory "m" cars? how many do you think have been crushed destroyed in racing or accidents, or just rotted away lost forever? lots of people are looking for these cars one would stand a better chance of hitting the lottery.

 

[Dave Russell]

If I remember correctly, there weren't enough salvageable parts to make much out of the "pool car". By the time you get all of the needed parts with correct numbers & get it all together, it would likely cost more than you could sell it for. Some of the parts would have to have the numbers re-stamped (faked) to make it work. There are ID numbers on the bonnet, boot, firewall tags, cockpit surrounds, windshield stantions, engine tag, & maybe a couple of other places.

Don't have any ethical suggestions. I have a completely converted car, they're referred to as LeMans, never 100M, but I would never try to pass it off as a true 100M.

For what it's worth, NADA high retail for the 100 shows $50,100, The 100M shows $67,000. Some auction prices show considerably higher.
D

 

[anthony7777]

dave, yes i have found all of the parts with stampings you mentioned as well as the small half round piece fitted to the trunk lid that the trunk rod fits to, the heritage certificate states the car was fitted with a louvered hood, that and the trans. i have not yet uncovered, i wonder how many award winning healeys have had a "kilmarten" sorry spelling, or some such frame installed? im not the kind of person that would "cook the books" on this kind of thing, im sure there are people that could restore the car back to original as could i, but its a matter of having the time, i would one day like to see it back the way it once was and know that some one was truly enjoying it.

 

[pan]

I think the Healeys commonly referred to as "100M" could be separated into three categories:
1. Genuine, certified 100M. As Dave says, fitted at Longbridge with a louvred bonnet and delivered to Warwick. All these cars are BN2s.
2. Le Mans Conversion. Fitted after market (but in period) with the dealer supplied special tuning kit. There are no records of how many BN1s & 2s were done this way, or if all the improvements were fitted.
3. Cars faked to 100M Specs. This has been done many, many times in the last thirty odd years, since it was found how rare the genuine article is.
The car only becomes a "fake" if passed off as the real thing.
Like any car, performance mods have been done to Healey 100s ever since they rolled off the production line, and many were taken far beyond the mild "M" specs.
But now that our cars are valuable, it's natural that when rebuilt, there will be some who want to have the top-line model. With so much detailed information available about the exact specifications, it is relatively easy to build a fake "100M".

 

[judow]

Bill Meade's 100-M Registry is probably the best yardstick for factory certified 100-M's. I believe it numbers 162. I had the good fortune to meet Bill at the Healeys on the Bay, Conclave 2008 and spent some time talking with him. To date my Agatha is the oldest on the list. We have determined that she was the afternoon car on the line on September 6, 1955, the first day of issue so to speak. To date the morning car has not been found. Also, Dave Russell is for my money one of the most informed Healey members on this forum and if he says it, I believe it.

Oh yes, I can't contain myself... Gerry Coker signed Agatha's dashboard and dated his signature. Agatha is still blushing.

Alright, I still can't contain myself she took the First Place Trophy for the 100-M's.

Please excuse the bragging but sometimes you just have to toot your own horn, so to speak. :banana:

 

[Dave Russell]

Hi Guys,
My original comments were addressed to Bobby's question about getting the big bucks by building repro 100M's. Not likely to work & would have some very mad customers.

Anthony,
I think the resurection could likely be done with a Kilmartin frame & a whole lot of work. I believe the Kilmartin is very close to original. The Jule frame has a number of "improvements" which are desirable but which would prevent it from being an original car. Not likely to pass as one of the big dollar 100M's.

Did you know that it's been discovered that the original 640 cars appear to have a detectibly different bonnet louver shape than the original factory supplied aftermarket & later reproduction bonnets? Also the underbracing in the originals is different from the reproductions.

You might find this interesting:
https://www.foreverhealeys.com/M/Sarah/MNumbers.htm

Pan,
I agree that converting a car to 100M specs, a LeMans, makes a much more fun car & is why so many folks do it. My own BN2 is converted to LeMans specs & far beyond. The whole engine except for the cylinder block itself is DWR parts, as is much of the suspension. Performance is very brisk & reliability is excellent. I would never try to pass it off as one of the now high dollar factory 100M's though.
D

 

[anthony7777]

dave, thanks for that, i found that page about a month ago, each time i brought a piece home from "the pool healey" id sit at my desk and check to see if the parts had numbers like the ones in the picts, they do, thats what got me to send for the heritige cert., ive never won anything in my life, no one has every given me anything worth much, so for me its like finding one of them crystal skulls, interesting thing is that what id thought was a pool is actualy an ice house, went through town records and found it was a community food ice house, once the stream below froze up theyd go down and cut out blocks of ice store it and have it all summer long to preserve food. its all very interesting and fun, what the heck i dont have anything else to do..."right" , pan, i know what you mean about "fake" original factory 100m's, i recently spoke to a guy in fla. said he restored 8 of them, ahah.

 

[TomFromStLouis]

judow,

You have every reason to be proud of Agatha. It may be the oldest factory M, but you do know that there is at least one of the prototypes around, right? A local club member here has one of the ? number of prototypes. He bought it from the original owner ~ 50 years ago, and drives it, still in original paint and hood. He shows it, and the sign helps garner a number of votes.

 

[judow]

Interestingly, yes I did know that there were prototypes. I heard that there were 4 and that they were produced in 54 and actually were BN-1's. Surely their value would be probably worth more than a factory certified M.

I checked my Austin-Healey 100 In Detail book by Bill Piggott and he references Bill Meade (100-M Registry) who says "The "Le Mans" Conversion Kit, based on those "special test car" modifications was first made available in 1954, before the start of the BN-2 production run. Because of this time frame, the first cars converted with the "Le Mans" kit were BN-1's (as were the four test cars described above). However, all of the factory-built 100 M's were based on BN-2 models.

If you have anymore data, be sure and let me know and I will likewise pass any I find on to you. You can pm me if you like.

Thanx.

P.S. Who is the lucky owner of this prototype? And do congratulate him for me!

 

[judow]

Anthony, you might well have a hidden treasure and your choice to restore it would be based on your ability and/or desire to spend the dollars. In my humble opinion, "If you have a toy and can at least get your money back, you are lucky man." If you can make a profit, you probably won't because you wouldn't want to sell it. I say you need to restore it in your own time. In the alternative if you choose not to, please sell it to someone who has the strong desire to properly complete its restoration.

When we restored Agatha 5 years ago, we spent more money than I care to discuss. I was very emotional about her and when we first brought her to Dave Porter in Albuquerque, NM, he thought we were crazy and we were! Emotions took over logic and I guess God was kind to us. When we garnered all the numbers we could, I sent for her BMIHT certificate and lo and behold, there she was a factory certified M. Mr. Porter than decided she would no longer be a parts car wannaby.

Best of luck in whatever decision you make. I am thrilled for you in either case!

Would I sell her? Absolutely not. I drive her whenever I can. She is a driver and the best stress reliever I know. When I go to Healey Heaven, my granddaughter will then be her caregiver. She thinks as much of Agatha as I do and quite frankly she's a packrat.

 

[pan]

I think Anthony should follow Dave's advice and re-build the car on a Kilmartin replacement frame. In authenticity terms this would be perfectly acceptable. Some years ago, Steve Pike in Victoria (AUS) built a very good replica 100S from little more that the ID plate of a wrecked S from New Zealand. I believe that car is now in Switzerland.
Dave,
I did not mean to imply that you would attempt any such thing as passing your car off as a "factory" M.
Through forums like this and the knowledge held by AH club members the world over, it would be difficult for any unscrupulous trading of any fakes to take place. When considering paying a large price for any collectible, the buyer should always investigate the provenance thoroughly.

 

[Healey 100]

Healey Friends:

Enjoy your Healey, forget what it's worth or how rare it is. The fact is all Healeys are grest looking, fun to drive and relatively rare today.

To me, auction prices are pretty meaningless, there are bubbles greated by the auction/speed channel system all the time. It makes great autopunditry and TV ratings. Auction companies make a fortune and some folks may make a few bucks or impress their friends by dropping a couple hundred K on some over hyped rare beauty. When you actually want to sell your Healey, it still takes time and patience to find someone as crazy as you are about these cars.

In case you haven't noticed, the economy is sort of in a dive these days. Do you really think folks will continue refinancing their homes to drop 100K on garage queen investments? Perhaps, but I'm sticking with my Healey. After all the bubbles have burst, she'll still sound and look great to me.

ps: I think flipping cars (or houses) is a loser. It only works if you happen to ride a bubble, and if so you would probably make more money if you just bought low and sold high without touching the car. Restoring a car to make a killing when you sell it rarely works, you usually end up upside down. Restore it to enjoy, you can't lose that way.